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Bell AH-1 Cobra, SuperCobra/-1Z Viper

Diskurzus a(z) 'Harci helikopterek' témában - GrGLy által indítva @ 2013. január 6..

  1. beta

    beta Well-Known Member

    Ezen még Netflixet is lehet nézni unalmas időkben :)
    Roni and sirdavegd like this.
  2. beta

    beta Well-Known Member

    Hát nem ócsó! De pl vadiúj, fullextrás Ka-52-vel kéne összehasonlítani némi fegyverzettel hozzácsapva. Meg ugye a fegyverek ára mindig politikai ár is, Bahrein ráadásul gyanítom jól lehúzható is.
    zsolti likes this.
  3. Sharid

    Sharid Well-Known Member

  4. beta

    beta Well-Known Member

  5. zsolti

    zsolti Well-Known Member

    Mind igaz amit írtál, szerintem is Bahrein lehúzható jobban mint az átlag, már csak azért is mert nekik VAN erre ennyi pénzük, de a Csehek új UH-1-eit is marha drágának találtam 50+ milláért/db.

    Valóban nem ócsó...
    Ezek után már én is nagyon kíváncsi vagyok hogy mibe kerül egy full extrás Ka-52 némi fegyverzettel. Hozzáteszem, ebben a csomagban minden van de fegyverzet az pont nem sok, mert a 14 db Hellfire + 56 db (APKWS-II) WGU-59Bs az nem egy nagy tétel. A beépített gépágyút meg ne vegyük már külön fegyverzetnek...
  6. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

    The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Czech Republic of four (4) AH-1Z attack helicopters and related equipment for an estimated cost of $205 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

    The Government of Czech Republic has requested to buy four (4) AH-1Z attack helicopters, eight (8) T700-GE-701D engines (installed), eight (8) Honeywell Embedded Global Positioning Systems with Inertial Navigation (EGI) and Precise Positioning Service (PPS) (installed), and fourteen (14) AGM-114 Hellfire missiles. Also included is communication equipment, electronic warfare systems, M197 20mm machine guns, Target Sight System, support equipment, spare engine containers, spare and repair parts, tools and test equipment, technical data and publications, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated program cost is $205 million.
    Pocok75 and zsolti like this.
  7. Allesmor Obranna

    Allesmor Obranna Well-Known Member

    AH-1Z Viper páncélzata. Csak a személyzet ülése kapott az üléseik köré épített kevlar páncélzatot.
    Ez a metódus amúgy a legszélesebb körben elterjedt megoldás, lásd az AH-64-eseket, vagy a leendő magyar H145M-eket akár.

  8. rudi

    rudi Well-Known Member

    Úgy tűnik az USA ban hirtelen lett 12 létszám fölötti embargós, eredetileg Pakisztánnak szánt AH-1Z Viper.
    A gépeket nem szállították le Pakisztánnak és jelenleg úton vannak egy Tucsonba egy repülőgép raktárba tartós tárolásra.
    A gépek fullos felszereltségűek:
    - Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight System
    - Thales Top Owl HMD,
    - BAE AN/ALE-47 chaff/flare dispenser,
    - Northrop AN/APR-39C(v2) RWR,
    - Orbital ATK AN/AAR-47 MWS
    A "Pakistan Army" feliratot már részben átfestették a gépeken
    alfa74, Python, fishbed and 3 others like this.
  9. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

    Csak érdekességképpen: a Cseh Légierő egy cseh nyelvű bejegyzéssorozatot indított a Facebookon arról, hogy miért az AH-1 és UH-1 párost vették. (angolul másolom be, úgy többen értik)


    We're here again. Give us two minutes.

    The army needs to modernize, you already know that and thank you for your support.

    We need to modernize not only on the ground, but also in the air. After tracked infantry fighting vehicles are the helicopters. It is a strategic project on which the functioning of almost the entire army depends. That's why we're here with our new show. We want to explain why we do it and how we do it.

    So first, why did Venom and Viper win?
    They are machines proven real combat deployment. We don't want to make experimental rabbits! For fire support, we need machines designed uncompromisingly for battlefield survival. After all, we are replacing the legendary twenty-four (Mi-24).

    The contract with the government will ensure the fast, smooth and reliable supply of spare parts. We will also support Czech companies.

    And why did we choose a variant of four Viper and eight multi-purpose (Venom) helicopters? Because it best meets our vision for the future shape of the helicopter air force. Their equipment and equipment are most suitable for direct combat support, transport and removal of wounded.

    The support of our troops is most important to us! No debate.

    Infantry combat vehicles will be much better off with such helicopters overhead.

    Ask questions, we will be happy to answer any questions. We don't have time for questions like “what good army is actually for?”

    Thank you for your support.

    Let's keep going! Watch us.

    We're an army. We know what we want.

    Venom and Viper, our new combat system.

    We explain why and for what we buy new helicopters.

    Tonight Part 2 of our series: Who actually made the decision?
    Many specialists participated in the selection of new machines, especially our active pilots specialists, but also our technicians. And we believe these people!

    Be sure it wasn't a clerical decision from the comfort of the office.

    By 2023, we will have all 12 new machines at home, and cooperation with our allies will go up again.

    And again, we are buying the entire system. In addition, all necessary equipment, ammunition, training, security and training will be part of the contract.

    Let's keep going! Thank you for your support. Watch us.

    We're an army. We know what we want.

    Venom and Viper helicopters!

    We are here with part 3 of our series.

    We want to buy helicopters in the form of an intergovernmental agreement, or government - government. This has a number of advantages. It ensures security and credibility, close cooperation and gain unique combat experience. Allows effective joint sharp deployment.

    The cost of operating such helicopters is fully comparable to other military helicopters of the same class. They do not require any extra expenses.

    We count on 36 pilots who will be able to spin on both variants of the machine. Viper and Venom are 85% identical.
    Our engineers will be able to guarantee trouble-free operation of these machines for at least the next 25 years.

    Let's keep going! Thank you for your support. Watch us.

    We're an army. We know what we want.

    Venom and Viper helicopters!
    Part 4 of our series: What do we do with today's machines?

    Weapon and avionic systems in them are outdated, spare parts unavailable. It's time to move on. We solve it well in advance. Mi-24 will end in 2025. Then they will retire if there are no buyers. Overhauls are no longer worthwhile. We build a modern army, not a maintenance army.

    We should get new helicopters during 2023. So we will have enough time to move to new machines and put them in service.
    Other Mi helicopters will be used until 2035, especially for the transport of people and material or for cooperation with rescue workers.

    We reduce our dependence on Russian technology as our country's strategic documents want us to. We need an army compatible with NATO allies.

    Let's keep going! Thank you for your support. Watch us.
    We're an army. We know what we want.


    Venom and Viper helicopters!

    Part 5 of our series: What will helicopters be equipped with?

    Aircraft machine guns, guided missiles against tanks, laser-guided missiles air-to-ground, 20mm air cannon, modern observation and communication systems and elements of active and passive protection.

    The machines will be equipped with systems that fully meet the required standards and our conditions to prevent the possibility of ice on the windscreen, engine entry or sophisticated equipment.

    We see skids instead of chassis as a big advantage. The helicopter is lighter and more manoeuvrable, the skids require little maintenance and have nothing to go wrong with.

    We will not have to buy anything essential.

    Let's keep going! Thank you for your support. Watch us.

    We're an army. We know what we want.

    We purchase Venom and Viper helicopters!

    And we are sure we made a good decision. We are here with the last, part 6 of our series: How will our home industry get involved?

    When we have to buy abroad, we try to help Czech companies as much as possible. We always do that. Absolutely.

    The agreement on the acquisition of helicopters will also include an agreement on industrial cooperation. The manufacturer will provide us with all necessary documentation to enable Czech companies to service and maintain. We also count on one hundred percent domestic companies in the case of further modernization.

    We want to have technology compatible with NATO allies.

    We want a technique that speaks the same language. And that's exactly what new helicopters can do.

    Ask questions in the discussion, we are ready for any questions.

    Let's keep going! We're an army. We know what we want.

    We purchase Venom and Viper helicopters!
    For several days, we explained why we were buying these machines, how we chose them, and what they can do.
    Thank you for your support!

    Let's repeat this:
    We reduce our dependence on Russian technology, as the strategic documents of the Czech Republic tell us. Old Mi-24 helicopters will be phased out in 2025, another Russian helicopters in 2035.

    We acquire 8 Venom helicopters and 4 Viper machines, which were costly upgraded in 2008. They are perfectly equipped machines that function as a system, complement each other and have 85% identical components. This reduces service costs and allows pilot training together.

    The concept of the army allows for the purchase of other pieces in the future. We will get them in 2023 and will serve at least the next 25 years.

    The selection was decided by a team of experts, consisting of technicians and active pilots. We want to buy helicopters in the form of an intergovernmental agreement (the so-called "government - government"), which guarantees security, credibility and close cooperation. As always, we want to support the domestic industry as much as possible.

    Thank you for your support. We're an army. We know what we want.


    Once more to the Venoms and the Vipers. You asked us a lot why 12 pieces, why 8 + 4 and if four combat vipers are not enough.

    We will try to explain in detail and show what the helicopters have in common and how they differ.

    1. The Army now operates a total of 10 Mi-24 machines. These will be replaced by the H-1 system (Venom and Viper). Twelve pieces are currently sufficient number. Our concept counts on the possibility of an increase in the future, especially in the Viper.

    2. Why do we call this system? Because Venoms and Vipers work as a whole, they support and complement each other. So we are not buying two different systems, but one. We keep repeating that they have 85% identical parts, which makes maintenance easier, cheaper to operate, and allows pilots to train together.

    3. The H-1 system has been developed for a wide range of tasks (the versatility we demanded).

    4. Venoms and Vipers are armed and carry out fire support tasks for ground troops.

    5. The H-1 system can also transport and rescue people by air.

    6. This is the first step towards the introduction of NATO-compatible combat helicopters.
    rudi, tiz, fishbed and 3 others like this.
  10. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

  11. rudi

    rudi Well-Known Member

    Szerintem a Cseh beszerzés abszolút "vállalható" - kivéve a db. számot (azt viszont a gazdasági realitások határozzák meg)
    - a választott típusok megfelelőek. Bevált "kemény" harci helik. Nulla az esély újabb komolyabb konstrukciós problémák felbukkanásának (ld.: H225M reduktor problémák…)
    - a felszereltég és fegyverzet osztályon felüli (TopOwl sisakok, Hellfire, stb…)
    - az ár (~ $50 millió / db) elfogadható, különösen úgy hogy az árban benne van a műszaki támogatás, a felszerelések, és v.mennyi fegyverzet is.
    - politikai téren egy cuppanós puszi a USA ülepére, ami segít kiegyensúlyozni a Németek árnyékában élő Cseh külpolitikát.

    Borítékolható hogy a most vásárolt helik mellett Cseheknek rövidesen szükségük lesz még egy felső közepes - nehéz kategóriájú (5-10 tonna teher emelő képességű) típusra is.
    ? Chinook ?
  12. Allesmor Obranna

    Allesmor Obranna Well-Known Member

    Kéne ennek a Viper Cobrának valami 25mm-es ágyú. Az ötcsövű GAU-12-es Equalizer-ből lett négycsövű GAU-22-est lehetne háromcsövesíteni és kész is az ideális gépágyú az AH-1Z-nek. Pl, lehetne GAU-32-es a jelölése, ahol pont jól jön ki, hogy ott van a nevében a 3-as szám is.
    Rotten878 likes this.
  13. Negan

    Negan Well-Known Member

    Van,csak senki nem rendszeresitette.De ki van dolgozva hozzá a 25milis GE225,a 30mmDEFA XM188 és M230 gá váltókészlet.Modulrendszerűen,akár tábori körülmények között cserélhető.Még a régi vietnámi M143+40milis agv torony is bármikor belerakható.
    Szerintem még mindig nagyon ott van a szeren az AH-1.Csak a rotorárbóc radar hiányzik róla.
  14. Allesmor Obranna

    Allesmor Obranna Well-Known Member

    Igen, ezeket az ágyúkat ismerem, de pl a GE225 soha nem került beépítésre sehova és a Gast-elv miatt a híresen/hirhedten brutális amerikai 25mm-es lőszer erejéből vesz el. Bár valljuk meg, van miből.
    A kényszer hajtásos Gatling-rendszer az energiát a fedélzetről vonja el, a felpörgési periódus alatt a pontosság se azonos a normál tűzsűrűségével, a rendszer is fajlagosan nehéz, de a lövedék torkolati energiájában nincs veszteség.
  15. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

    fishbed and Reppa like this.
  16. megazez

    megazez Well-Known Member

    Csak nekem tűnt fel, hogy amerikával ha letárgyalsz valamit, utólag mindig drágább lesz jóval az eredeti árnál?
    Nem akarok keresgélni, de a lengyel patriot is drágább lett emlékeim szerint
  17. rudi

    rudi Well-Known Member

    Elolvastam én is a cikket és szerintem kicsit más a helyzet...

    1.) 2017 Májusában a Cseh kormány CZK 24,6 milliárd összegben jóváhagyott egy tervet amelynek a célja a "Cseh Köztársaság hadseregének légierő képességeinek fenntartására és fejlesztésére irányuló stratégiai program" volt. Ennek keretében terveztek beszerezni TÖBBEK KÖZÖTT új harci heliket is, de ebből az összegből akartak szállító gépeket meg lokátorokat is beszerezni, meg légiforgalmi irányító rendszereket korszerűsíteni, stb...
    2.) múlt év Dec.13.án aláírták a szerződés 12 db heli ( 8db AH-1Y és 4db AH-1Z) megvásárlására CZK 14,8 milliárd ($646 millió) értékben.
    3.) Most úgy döntöttek hogy a TELJES FEJLESZTÉSI PROGRAMRA jóváhagyott 24,6 milliárdot emeljék föl 36 milliárdra, mert egyrészt az új helikre többet költenek mint gondolták, meg az árfolyam, stb..

    Vagyis nem a most beszerzett helik ára nőtt, hanem rájöttek hogy a teljes programra szánt pénz kevés.
    fip7, borisz, fishbed and 2 others like this.
  18. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

    Igen, ez a jó megfejtés.
  19. pöcshuszár

    pöcshuszár Well-Known Member

    Nem biztos!
    A 12 helikopter ugye 14,8Mrd CZK
    A Casa modernizáció + 2 új gép: 2,36Mrd CZK
    8db izraeli radar: 3,5Mrd CZK
    + még a maradék 3,94Mrd CZK az apró a légirányításra, infrastruktúra felújításra.

    12 Mrd CZK a most hozzádobott + keret.
    Ennyit nem drágult sem az árfolyam, sem az adók.
    A tippem az, hogy vagy már a következő turnus amerikai helijeire lett kibővítve a keret, vagy mégis befizetnek a KC-390-re (3-4db jön ki belőle, a supporttól függően)...
  20. fedett_mókus

    fedett_mókus Well-Known Member

    legalább ők rájöttek , elismerik és változtatnak...
    lehet csak elírtad de 8db UH-1Y (medium-sized utility helicopter) és 4db AH-1Z(harci heli) fog érkezni nem 12 harci heli
    alfa74 likes this.

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