Román haderőfejlesztési program és hadiipar

[kamm]

Szerintem csak arra gondol, hogy 1, a NATO kötelező 2% az nem per capital származék, tehát az oláhoknak is a teljes GDP köti, hogy mennyit kell minimum számszerűen költeniük 2, vagy tudnának -elvileg- finanszírozni kétszeres létszám hadsereget majdnem ugyan azon a szinten, vagy amire célozgat, hogy számszerűen annyi fegyverest tartana meg, mint nálunk van, akkor lenne egy rakás pénzük még a legkorszerűbb technológiára.

Úgy értelmezem a szavaitokat, hogy a te kiinduló álláspontod az, hogy a Honvédséghez képest alapból nagyobb létszám miatt eleve szűkös fejlesztési lehetőségek miatt ők jobban megéreznék/megérzik új cuccok beszerzését. Nála meg az az alap, hogy ha nem faszkodnának a számokkal, akkor ő tudna javasolni nekik egy menetrendet, ami áttérés lenne egy modern haderőre. (Csak nem úgy kellene kezdeni, hogy mindenből négyszer annyit akarok, mint Magyarország, mi a legolcsóbb ajánlat és... mennyit engedsz a feléből?)

A stilussal van inakbb a gond, mert ordenare modon valaszolt, pedig senki nem szolt be senkinek, plane nem neki - mikozben teljesen logikus, mit magyarazok, o is erti jol. A GDP onmagaban hiaba 2x akkora, az nem erv, hogy ha akarnak, akkor eheztetik a lakossagot es inkabb vesznek F-35-ot, mert akkor elsopri a kormanyt egy felkeles.

100x leirtuk mar, a csehek, szlovakok stb mind ugyanazt a tomeghadsereges strukturat orokoltek meg, eltero szinten, de mindenki ugyanazzal a problemaval sziv ma is: jol fizetett, korrket letszam vs uj vas/lecserelni a szovjet ocskavasakat?
A romanok vannak a legtavolabb a multban, tomeghadsereget probalnak fenntartani es emiatt mindenuk eloregedett, amerikaiaktol vasarolgatnak randomra aranyarban dolgokat, minimalis mennyisegben.
A csehek megfeleloen megvagtak a letszamot es meg a vasaikat is megprobaltak modernizalni, utobbi nemigen sikerult, viszont a sereguk jobban fizetett es aranyosan rengeteget visz el a fenntartasa, igy sokkal nehezebb a teljes technikai atallas.
A lengyelek tartanak legelorebb, mert ok hajlandoak voltak raaldozni 10+ evet es egy valag penzt a Rozsomakra (Patria licensz) meg a Borsuk-programra rogton az elejetol, de naluk is gond pl a nehezlovassag csereje.
Nalunk pukkant le legborzasztobban a sereg, viszont emiatt pont mi tudunk nagyon gyorsan atvaltani egy modern, profi felszerelesu seregre, nincs igazan semmi menteni valo mar. Viszont a budget nalunk sem vegtelen, ezert eloszor jon technika, utana lehet csak penzt emelni, ez az elkepzeles. En bizom benne, hogy tudnak tervezni, de meglatjuk.

 

[Vogon]

A stilussal van inakbb a gond, mert ordenare modon valaszolt, pedig senki nem szolt be senkinek, plane nem neki - mikozben teljesen logikus, mit magyarazok, o is erti jol. A GDP onmagaban hiaba 2x akkora, az nem erv, hogy ha akarnak, akkor eheztetik a lakossagot es inkabb vesznek F-35-ot, mert akkor elsopri a kormanyt egy felkeles.

100x leirtuk mar, a csehek, szlovakok stb mind ugyanazt a tomeghadsereges strukturat orokoltek meg, eltero szinten, de mindenki ugyanazzal a problemaval sziv ma is: jol fizetett, korrket letszam vs uj vas/lecserelni a szovjet ocskavasakat?
A romanok vannak a legtavolabb a multban, tomeghadsereget probalnak fenntartani es emiatt mindenuk eloregedett, amerikaiaktol vasarolgatnak randomra aranyarban dolgokat, minimalis mennyisegben.
A csehek megfeleloen megvagtak a letszamot es meg a vasaikat is megprobaltak modernizalni, utobbi nemigen sikerult, viszont a sereguk jobban fizetett es aranyosan rengeteget visz el a fenntartasa, igy sokkal nehezebb a teljes technikai atallas.
A lengyelek tartanak legelorebb, mert ok hajlandoak voltak raaldozni 10+ evet es egy valag penzt a Rozsomakra (Patria licensz) meg a Borsuk-programra rogton az elejetol, de naluk is gond pl a nehezlovassag csereje.
Nalunk pukkant le legborzasztobban a sereg, viszont emiatt pont mi tudunk nagyon gyorsan atvaltani egy modern, profi felszerelesu seregre, nincs igazan semmi menteni valo mar. Viszont a budget nalunk sem vegtelen, ezert eloszor jon technika, utana lehet csak penzt emelni, ez az elkepzeles. En bizom benne, hogy tudnak tervezni, de meglatjuk.

Korrekt összefoglaló. Én is így látom.
Talán annyit kiegészítenék, hogy a románoknál nem csak a keret a rossz. Náluk kulturális becsípődés is, amit csinálnak. Eleve nem érzik magukat képesnek az élvonalra. Ez figyelhető meg nem csak a kommentekben, de újságírók tollából is. "Ne legyen túl bonyolult technológia, mert azt nem képes eltartani a gazdaságunk." "Az iparunk nem képes..." "Mérnökeink jelentették, hogy nem tudjuk a proto alapján sem lemásolni az ilyen bonyolult előállítási folyamatot, szükségünk van tech transzferre és külső segítségre." "A legjobbakból a legjobbakat válogatjuk ki, hogy képesek legyenek egy ilyen összetett és fejlett eszközt kezelni."

Meg kell érteni, hogy Erdélyben borzasztóan mélyen gyökerezik a sztereotípia, amit a románok is vallanak, hogy a szászok a kultúra legmagasabb szintjét képviselik. A magyarokat ma is műveltebbnek és képzettebbnek tartják maguknál. Önmaguknál csak a cigányt tekintik primitívebbnek.
Ezt ellensúlyozzák egy olyan önképpel, hogy ők olyan ügyeskedők. Behízelgik magukat mások kegyeibe, mondanak valamit, de már azt tervezik, hogy az mégsem úgy lesz, hanem amikor az ő vitorlájukba fúj a szél, akkor majd újra tárgyalják.

Én a pénzen kívül érzem azt is rajtuk, hogy megijednek attól, hogy a legjobb lesz a kezükbe. És jól érzik magukat, hogy egy olyan repülőt kaptak, amire lehet nemzeti büszkeséget építeni, az elmúlt kor legjobbja. De amivel nem szégyen a NATO katonák elől, ha bukdácsolnak, mert a profik majd úgy is tudják, hogy ez nem is teljesen az ő hibájuk, majd megértik, hogy próbáltak ők, meg mennyiséget vásároltak, csak ezekkel a rozsda ette dolgokkal mégsem lesznek fejlett, nyugati sereg.

Kicsit olyanoknak tűnnek, mint a féltesó, aki örül a nagyobbik levedlett cuccainak is, oda bújik és a család meg a szeretett közösség része... de akinek tudnia kell, hogy soha nem lesz olyan jó, mint a mindkétszülő gyereke. De még így is boldog, hogy befogadták és nem tették ki az utcára, a hidegbe.

 

[Hummen23]

Ez valószínűleg igy van. Előnyünk a majd 20 év tapasztalat. Viszont én nem örülnék ha annyi lenne a vadaszgépfejlesztésünk, hogy veszünk tizeniksz használt gépet. A létszámot illene duplázni és amellett vagy jöjjön vmi kapcsolt hadiipari beruházás, vagy váltsunk fejlettebb verzióra. De a legoprimálisabb egy is-is lenne.

Visszatérve a románokra 3 század, abból egy F-35 verhetetlennek tűnik. Mondjuk egy 20 milliós országnak, szemben az oroszokkal meg inkább alapnak.

Legyen triplázás! +2 század e/f.

 

[Masztiff]

Que pasó?

Csak annyi, hogy hülleséget írtál ismét.

 

[Masztiff]

Pont ezért kérdeztem ,hogy a román haditengerészet kb mennyit kap az össz def budgetből?

Nem tudom, de eléggé legatyásodtak, úgy olvastam itt. Van mire költeniük.

 

[AndreiCT]

Romanian here.
I will try to pretend that I didn't see all the "nice" comments towards Romanians on this forum, so I will try to keep my comments on the topic.

It is a mistake that some of you disregard the capabilities of the Romanian Armed Forces, it's your loss.

Personally, I am not happy with the acquisition of the second-hand F-16s, but it is a done thing now.
Third-hand in fact, as it was already posted here, the first 12 airframes were manufactured in 1983-1984 and also used by the Americans before they give them to the Portuguese.
Nevertheless, these fighters are not that bad as some of you picture and they are at least at the level of your Gripens.

The airframes were totally refurbished in Portugal so at the time when Romania received them, each airframe had a total lifespan of 4,000 hours of flight left.

At an average of 1.5 pilots per plane and each with 130 hours of flight, each aircraft can be used for 20 years.

These fighters have the AN / APG-66V (2) A radar with a detection range of approximately 115 km similar to the PS-05 / A radar on the Gripen C / D which has a detection range of about 120 km.

Armament of the Romanian F-16s include:

• 30 x AIM 120 AMRAAM C6 (later upgraded to AMRAAM-C7)
• 60 x AIM 9M Sidewinder
• 18 x AGM 65H Maverick

These weapons were bought with the first batch of 12 aircrafts.
Also Sniper Targeting Pods were bought

Later on Romania also bought 10 x AIM-9X Sidewinder Block II missiles.
Very few but it's a start.

So, I see that one user here thinks that the Hungarian Gripens will wipe the floor with the Romanian F-16s. Dude, don't be so arrogant, the sides aren't disproportionate at all. And you have only 14 Gripens, and Gripen is not Eurofighter or Rafale.
I don't want to be rude, but don't lie to yourself, you can't see the reality and you can't accept the truth because of the hatred you have for Romania.
The same user stated that Hungary's GDP per capita is 50% more than that of Romania. (I hope I did read well and it was not a mistake due to Google translate)
Hungary has a GDP per capita slighty higher than Romania, but 50% difference? wtf. At least check on Wikipedia if nothing else.

And I want to also address some fake news that is spread here by some users:

1) "Romania's Patriot systems are in control of the Americans"
This is totally fake. Romania ordered a total of 7 fire units, 3 or 4 of them have already been paid, only the first fire unit arrived in the country yet.
Romanian military personnel have been trained and are still trained in order to operate the systems. These belong totally to Romania, 4 fire units for the Air Force and 3 fire units for the Army.
On the other hand, the Aegis Ashore base in Deveselu, Romania, which has SM-3 missiles is owned and operated by the US Navy. That base is US property under NATO command.

2) Myth no.2: "Americans will not sell F-35 to Romania"
Again, completely wrong.
One of the reasons that Romania didn't buy additional F-16s yet is because US pressure to buy F-35s directly instead of additional used F-16s, just like Poland did. But Romanian officials acknowledged that there simply aren't money yet for F-35s because that if we buy F-35s now like Poland, it would mean delay of other major programs. So we stick to the additional F-16s now probably second-hand. Poland has a more than double budget.
Officially Romania plans to purchase F-35 since 2030.
And be sure that what Poland gets from the Americans, Romania will also get if it have the money. And the US will likely sell F-35s to any NATO ally if it has the money.

3) When Romania received the first 18 units of HIMARS launchers I read here that this is all Romania will get.
Again this is wrong, US delivers the HIMARS launchers as they are built.
The contract includes among others a total of 54 launchers and 54 ATACMS missiles.

PS: I am working on a military-themed website so I will also post a lot of articles about Hungary so I found this forum to inform myself about Hungarian acquisition programs.
And I will try to be totally unbiased and present the facts as they'll denaturate are the truth and not as some users do here when It comes to Romania.
I felt very bad when I read the topic about Romania on this forum.
Basically all of the bad things that happen in Romania are posted there and people laugh. I really wondered if the average-age of the users here is 14 or something like that, because some of them are above any limit. It is bad if they are adults and think the way they think.

Anyway, if someone has any additional question about Romanian Military and it's acquisition programs I will try to answer as well as I can without denaturate the truth.
By the way this video about Hungary was posted by me:

[MEDIA = youtube] C0mE2pFZvSk [/ MEDIA]

Keep in mind that this was posted back in 2019 when many of the purchases were not yet announced at that time.

 

[Vogon]

Wellcome!


Pontos-e az általunk gondolt F-16 MLU block 15 vagy 20 modernizációs szint? Nagyon eltérő információk jelentek meg erről a román médiában, talán te tudsz konkrétumot. Szavaidból azt szűröm le, hogy te is arra számítasz, hogy a következő beszerzések is használt gépek lesznek. A román közvélemény mennyi új század felszerelését gondolja? Sejtések inkább a +3 hoz vagy inkább csak még egy századhoz konvergálnak 2030-ig?

Mennyi konténert mondanak, amit egy gépnek szállítania kell majd?

Illetve ha már feldobtad a labdát és kérdezhetünk tőled, milyen ütemezést írnak elő a Piranhákra? Ismerjük az első 30 leszállítását, de évente körülbelül ennyire kell továbbra is számítani? Ki tudnád-e keresni a haditengerészetre szánt összegeket az éves költségvetésből? (Itt elég nekünk egy közelítő részarány a teljes honvédelemhez képest, nem az új beszerzések érdekelnek, hanem a fenntartás.) Tüzérségnél az általad is említett rakétákon kívül hallani-e előkészületeket más beszerzésről?
Volt-e az elmúlt években javulás a lövészek személyes felszerelésében? (páncéltörők, kézifegyverek, stb.)

Az elmúlt NATO-csúcs egyik fő megállapodása, hogy mindenki költsön 20%-ot a védelmi kiadásaiból új technikák beszerzésére. Romániában hogy állt ez a részarány az elmúlt években?

 

[kamm]

Csak annyi, hogy hülleséget írtál ismét.

Marmint azzal, amit azota o is elismert, hogy elnezett es igazam volt?

 

[Kulso_54]

Romanian here.
I will try to pretend that I didn't see all the "nice" comments towards Romanians on this forum, so I will try to keep my comments on the topic.

It is a mistake that some of you disregard the capabilities of the Romanian Armed Forces, it's your loss.

Personally, I am not happy with the acquisition of the second-hand F-16s, but it is a done thing now.
Third-hand in fact, as it was already posted here, the first 12 airframes were manufactured in 1983-1984 and also used by the Americans before they give them to the Portuguese.
Nevertheless, these fighters are not that bad as some of you picture and they are at least at the level of your Gripens.

The airframes were totally refurbished in Portugal so at the time when Romania received them, each airframe had a total lifespan of 4,000 hours of flight left.

At an average of 1.5 pilots per plane and each with 130 hours of flight, each aircraft can be used for 20 years.

These fighters have the AN / APG-66V (2) A radar with a detection range of approximately 115 km similar to the PS-05 / A radar on the Gripen C / D which has a detection range of about 120 km.

Armament of the Romanian F-16s include:

• 30 x AIM 120 AMRAAM C6 (later upgraded to AMRAAM-C7)
• 60 x AIM 9M Sidewinder
• 18 x AGM 65H Maverick

These weapons were bought with the first batch of 12 aircrafts.
Also Sniper Targeting Pods were bought

Later on Romania also bought 10 x AIM-9X Sidewinder Block II missiles.
Very few but it's a start.

So, I see that one user here thinks that the Hungarian Gripens will wipe the floor with the Romanian F-16s. Dude, don't be so arrogant, the sides aren't disproportionate at all. And you have only 14 Gripens, and Gripen is not Eurofighter or Rafale.
I don't want to be rude, but don't lie to yourself, you can't see the reality and you can't accept the truth because of the hatred you have for Romania.
The same user stated that Hungary's GDP per capita is 50% more than that of Romania. (I hope I did read well and it was not a mistake due to Google translate)
Hungary has a GDP per capita slighty higher than Romania, but 50% difference? wtf. At least check on Wikipedia if nothing else.

And I want to also address some fake news that is spread here by some users:

1) "Romania's Patriot systems are in control of the Americans"
This is totally fake. Romania ordered a total of 7 fire units, 3 or 4 of them have already been paid, only the first fire unit arrived in the country yet.
Romanian military personnel have been trained and are still trained in order to operate the systems. These belong totally to Romania, 4 fire units for the Air Force and 3 fire units for the Army.
On the other hand, the Aegis Ashore base in Deveselu, Romania, which has SM-3 missiles is owned and operated by the US Navy. That base is US property under NATO command.

2) Myth no.2: "Americans will not sell F-35 to Romania"
Again, completely wrong.
One of the reasons that Romania didn't buy additional F-16s yet is because US pressure to buy F-35s directly instead of additional used F-16s, just like Poland did. But Romanian officials acknowledged that there simply aren't money yet for F-35s because that if we buy F-35s now like Poland, it would mean delay of other major programs. So we stick to the additional F-16s now probably second-hand. Poland has a more than double budget.
Officially Romania plans to purchase F-35 since 2030.
And be sure that what Poland gets from the Americans, Romania will also get if it have the money. And the US will likely sell F-35s to any NATO ally if it has the money.

3) When Romania received the first 18 units of HIMARS launchers I read here that this is all Romania will get.
Again this is wrong, US delivers the HIMARS launchers as they are built.
The contract includes among others a total of 54 launchers and 54 ATACMS missiles.

PS: I am working on a military-themed website so I will also post a lot of articles about Hungary so I found this forum to inform myself about Hungarian acquisition programs.
And I will try to be totally unbiased and present the facts as they'll denaturate are the truth and not as some users do here when It comes to Romania.
I felt very bad when I read the topic about Romania on this forum.
Basically all of the bad things that happen in Romania are posted there and people laugh. I really wondered if the average-age of the users here is 14 or something like that, because some of them are above any limit. It is bad if they are adults and think the way they think.

Anyway, if someone has any additional question about Romanian Military and it's acquisition programs I will try to answer as well as I can without denaturate the truth.
By the way this video about Hungary was posted by me:

[MEDIA = youtube] C0mE2pFZvSk [/ MEDIA]

Keep in mind that this was posted back in 2019 when many of the purchases were not yet announced at that time.

"totally unbiased" Yes We see it, it seems

"14 Gripens, and Gripen is not Eurofighter or Rafale"
Could you explain this, how dou you mean it?

 

[angelsoul]

2) Myth no.2: "Americans will not sell F-35 to Romania"

The US willing to sell it to any NATO country (except Erdogan empire), both Hungary or Romania can order it.
Too bad its current shape is not worth for our level - will be in 10 years. This is somewhat similar what happened to the Rafale... at the start the plane was a failure in the market until matured, see how many order came recently.

PS: I am working on a military-themed website so I will also post a lot of articles about Hungary so I found this forum to inform myself about Hungarian acquisition programs.
And I will try to be totally unbiased and present the facts as they'll denaturate are the truth and not as some users do here when It comes to Romania.
I felt very bad when I read the topic about Romania on this forum.
Basically all of the bad things that happen in Romania are posted there and people laugh. I really wondered if the average-age of the users here is 14 or something like that, because some of them are above any limit. It is bad if they are adults and think the way they think.

Well, local reaction based on how you behave against the Hungarian population there...

 

[SilvioD]

Romanian here.
I will try to pretend that I didn't see all the "nice" comments towards Romanians on this forum, so I will try to keep my comments on the topic.

It is a mistake that some of you disregard the capabilities of the Romanian Armed Forces, it's your loss.

Personally, I am not happy with the acquisition of the second-hand F-16s, but it is a done thing now.
Third-hand in fact, as it was already posted here, the first 12 airframes were manufactured in 1983-1984 and also used by the Americans before they give them to the Portuguese.
Nevertheless, these fighters are not that bad as some of you picture and they are at least at the level of your Gripens.

The airframes were totally refurbished in Portugal so at the time when Romania received them, each airframe had a total lifespan of 4,000 hours of flight left.

At an average of 1.5 pilots per plane and each with 130 hours of flight, each aircraft can be used for 20 years.

These fighters have the AN / APG-66V (2) A radar with a detection range of approximately 115 km similar to the PS-05 / A radar on the Gripen C / D which has a detection range of about 120 km.

Armament of the Romanian F-16s include:

• 30 x AIM 120 AMRAAM C6 (later upgraded to AMRAAM-C7)
• 60 x AIM 9M Sidewinder
• 18 x AGM 65H Maverick

These weapons were bought with the first batch of 12 aircrafts.
Also Sniper Targeting Pods were bought

Later on Romania also bought 10 x AIM-9X Sidewinder Block II missiles.
Very few but it's a start.

So, I see that one user here thinks that the Hungarian Gripens will wipe the floor with the Romanian F-16s. Dude, don't be so arrogant, the sides aren't disproportionate at all. And you have only 14 Gripens, and Gripen is not Eurofighter or Rafale.
I don't want to be rude, but don't lie to yourself, you can't see the reality and you can't accept the truth because of the hatred you have for Romania.
The same user stated that Hungary's GDP per capita is 50% more than that of Romania. (I hope I did read well and it was not a mistake due to Google translate)
Hungary has a GDP per capita slighty higher than Romania, but 50% difference? wtf. At least check on Wikipedia if nothing else.

And I want to also address some fake news that is spread here by some users:

1) "Romania's Patriot systems are in control of the Americans"
This is totally fake. Romania ordered a total of 7 fire units, 3 or 4 of them have already been paid, only the first fire unit arrived in the country yet.
Romanian military personnel have been trained and are still trained in order to operate the systems. These belong totally to Romania, 4 fire units for the Air Force and 3 fire units for the Army.
On the other hand, the Aegis Ashore base in Deveselu, Romania, which has SM-3 missiles is owned and operated by the US Navy. That base is US property under NATO command.

2) Myth no.2: "Americans will not sell F-35 to Romania"
Again, completely wrong.
One of the reasons that Romania didn't buy additional F-16s yet is because US pressure to buy F-35s directly instead of additional used F-16s, just like Poland did. But Romanian officials acknowledged that there simply aren't money yet for F-35s because that if we buy F-35s now like Poland, it would mean delay of other major programs. So we stick to the additional F-16s now probably second-hand. Poland has a more than double budget.
Officially Romania plans to purchase F-35 since 2030.
And be sure that what Poland gets from the Americans, Romania will also get if it have the money. And the US will likely sell F-35s to any NATO ally if it has the money.

3) When Romania received the first 18 units of HIMARS launchers I read here that this is all Romania will get.
Again this is wrong, US delivers the HIMARS launchers as they are built.
The contract includes among others a total of 54 launchers and 54 ATACMS missiles.

PS: I am working on a military-themed website so I will also post a lot of articles about Hungary so I found this forum to inform myself about Hungarian acquisition programs.
And I will try to be totally unbiased and present the facts as they'll denaturate are the truth and not as some users do here when It comes to Romania.
I felt very bad when I read the topic about Romania on this forum.
Basically all of the bad things that happen in Romania are posted there and people laugh. I really wondered if the average-age of the users here is 14 or something like that, because some of them are above any limit. It is bad if they are adults and think the way they think.
Anyway, if someone has any additional question about Romanian Military and it's acquisition programs I will try to answer as well as I can without denaturate the truth.
By the way this video about Hungary was posted by me:


[MEDIA = youtube] C0mE2pFZvSk [/ MEDIA]

Keep in mind that this was posted back in 2019 when many of the purchases were not yet announced at that time.

The video is not connected properly and cannot be played.

Which online Romanian site do you work on? I read these two regularly.

https://m.defenseromania.ro/

https://www.rumaniamilitary.ro/

Don’t you think you used an F-16 to waste money? In the medium term, you will have to buy a fighter twice.
We have a bit of a feeling that there are more loud announcements in Romania than real purchases. The reason for this may also be that the opposite is true in Hungary. For example, after months of leaking something on the forum, only then came a real report

Nevertheless, I believe that Romania, like Poland, is spending the most on developing the region's strength. In Romania, very US-centric procurement is taking place and the European military industry is being neglected. The Hungarian development concept is Europe-centric and we only pay the mandatory defense money to the USA. The vast majority still see this as good, we don’t want to depend on the US, it can be quite dangerous if US interests are reversed. Or American weapons are often overpriced and uneconomical to maintain. See currently used F-16. Okay, bring the current Hungarian Gripen level, but Hungary bought it in 2002 ...

Ps. The laughter of Romanians is a Hungarian sport, but based on the last century, this is the minimum, but you don't have to be too sensitive. Forums are like that.

 

[AndreiCT]

@Vogon

# F-16
I have to admit that much of the info regarding the Romanian F-16s (and F-16s in general with all the blocks and updates) are indeed confusing even for us.
From what I understand (I also look at F-16.net database) is that these now Romanian aicrafts were originally bought by the USAF in the 1980s as F-16A/B Block 15.
Then were sold to the Portughese and they upgraded them to MLU standard (F-16AM/BM) and I think this is the moment when they were also designated as F-16AM/BM Block 20.
Then the one sold to Romania were refurbished and modernized to the M5.2 tape, and among others their cockpit is now similar to the Block 50/52.
Now, the Romanian Air Force want to further upgrade them to the Tape M6.x in Romania at Aerostar Bacau.
Aerostar are the ones that upgraded the MiG-21s with Elbit and also Aerostar will be responsible for the maintenance works for F-16, Patriot and HIMARS.

When this was announced, I asked myself wtf is tape M6.x?
On F-16.net they listed the M6.1, M6.2 and M6.5 tapes but the Romanian Ministry of Defence stated only M6.x whatever it is that means, I really don't know (maybe only some elements of one of the M6 tapes)
I have to admit that these Romanian F-16 are some kind of Frankenstein, like a weird mix.

The best things (for us) with this second-hand F-16s is that modernization and maintenance works will be done by a Romanian company.
And these F-16s can be further upgraded to the F-16V standard with the AN/APG-83 SABR AESA radar. Taiwan is upgrading its F-16A/Bs to the F-16V standard. So I am hoping for that in the future.

# Piranha 5
From my perspective, I hate the Piranha deal !
With Piranha they killed the AGILIS 8x8 program with the Germans.
They said that the majority of Piranhas will be "manufactured" at UMB, but the reality is that UMB (the company that produced the TR-85 tanks) is performing only the assembly. I think that even the hulls are made in Switzerland.
Only 30 or 36 Piranhas were received so far from Switzerland and the program faced serious delays.
GDELS was even fined some millions of dollars by the Romanian Ministry of Defence for the delays.
I don't know yet how many Piranhas will be in the IFV version equipped with the Elbit UT-30 Mk 2 turret.
At least the turrets are made in Romania in a facility built by Elbit.
But our "smart decidents" haven't integrated yet the Spike missiles on the turret, although this can be done, and I am sure it will be done in the future

Now, AGILIS is almost 100% canceled.
This is the level of the American influence in Romania, because the Americans entered the game and promised that instead of AGILIS, Automecanica Moreni would produce an amphibious variant of the Piranha 4! (yes, 4).
So when the time of a new amphibious 8x8 troop carrier will come, it will probably be a derivate of the Piranha 4 instead of AGILIS.

# The Navy
There was a bid for four new corvettes for the Navy.
Naval Group won, so four Gowind 2500 corvettes will have to be built by the Constanta Naval Shipyard.
BUT!!! (Romanian shit) before the official opening of the envelopes with the bids, there were information leaks in the press with all the offers.
So after Naval Group was declared winner, Damen Group contested the bid so now this program is judged in Court, so is delayed. Only in Romania could have happened this shit.

# Reactive artillery
The LAROM can be further modernized to some extent but so far nothing have been done.
But the Romanian Military Equipment and Technologies Research Agency is working on thermobaric warheads for the 122 mm rockets.
They already developed thermobaric warheads for the AG-7 (Romanian version of RPG-7).

I will try to look through all the articles in the Romanian press regarding the F-16 deal and others, so I will come back in several days and will try to make a more detailed resume especially of the F-16 acquisition, the percent of GDP for acquisitions and more.

 

[fedett_mókus]

Nem maradhatna magyar a magyar fórum? No offense

 

[L.O.B]

Nem maradhatna magyar a magyar fórum? No offense

miért google fordítóval kínlódjon a manusz mikor az angol nyelvtudás használata a legegyszerűbb.

 

[AndreiCT]

@angelsoul
Totally agree with the F-35, I am sure the Americans already make offers both to Hungary and Romania, and even if we wanted or not I think both Hungary and Romania will have F-35 in the future because if one of them will buy it, the other will follow.

That were the only statements I had made on that matter, I don't want to provoke any user here, and I understand your point of view. You can also find bad words about Hungarians thrown without any reason on Romanian sites too ... it was just my reaction of recently reading some bad shit. Now I am cool

@SilvioD
The website I have built is called Defense Database: defencedb.com

Here is the link to the video I created about the Hungarian Armed Forces:

Again, keep in mind this is outdated info, I posted it in 2019, I will create a new one with the latest developments.

"We have a bit of a feeling that there are more loud announcements in Romania than real purchases".
YES, this is true, I was also thinking about that, and compared it to the Hungarian way of doing it.
l like it that Hungary said that it will bought something, and then did it.

Romania on the other hand more likely presented all the plans regarding its future purchases, when it was clear that it did not have the money for all of them.

For example the attack helicopters. Romania said it wants to buy 24 x AH-1Z Vipers and 21 x UH-1Y Venoms.
This helis would cost around $ 5 billion and are many other programs to launch like the SHORAD one, a total of a total of 27 systems worth of 2.7 billion euros.
So the attack helicopter program was delayed and now also Airbus and Leonardo are interested in this program, Leonardo seems to offer the new AW249.

Here is a large article that I wrote about all the Romanian plans.
But it is so large and I made a lot of grammar errors (I will have to correct them). Also, some info need to be updated.

https://defencedb.com/article.php?article_id=17

And sorry for these long posts, I have the tendency to talk too much.

 

[AndreiCT]

@Kulso_54
"14 Gripens, and Gripen is not Eurofighter or Rafale"
Could you explain this, how dou you mean it?

I mean that the sides are quite equal, you cannot gain supremacy over our Air Force with only 14 Gripens.

@fedett_mókus
"Nem maradhatna magyar a magyar fórum? No offense"

No offense taken, I can see that if I write in English, Google translate messes all the page, so I will not post anymore, because it doesn't make sense and it's hard to understand each other.

 

[SilvioD]

@angelsoul
Totally agree with the F-35, I am sure the Americans already make offers both to Hungary and Romania, and even if we wanted or not I think both Hungary and Romania will have F-35 in the future because if one of them will buy it, the other will follow.

That were the only statements I had made on that matter, I don't want to provoke any user here, and I understand your point of view. You can also find bad words about Hungarians thrown without any reason on Romanian sites too ... it was just my reaction of recently reading some bad shit. Now I am cool

@SilvioD
The website I have built is called Defense Database: defencedb.com

Here is the link to the video I created about the Hungarian Armed Forces:

Again, keep in mind this is outdated info, I posted it in 2019, I will create a new one with the latest developments.

"We have a bit of a feeling that there are more loud announcements in Romania than real purchases".
YES, this is true, I was also thinking about that, and compared it to the Hungarian way of doing it.
l like it that Hungary said that it will bought something, and then did it.

Romania on the other hand more likely presented all the plans regarding its future purchases, when it was clear that it did not have the money for all of them.

For example the attack helicopters. Romania said it wants to buy 24 x AH-1Z Vipers and 21 x UH-1Y Venoms.
This helis would cost around $ 5 billion and are many other programs to launch like the SHORAD one, a total of a total of 27 systems worth of 2.7 billion euros.
So the attack helicopter program was delayed and now also Airbus and Leonardo are interested in this program, Leonardo seems to offer the new AW249.

Here is a large article that I wrote about all the Romanian plans.
But it is so large and I made a lot of grammar errors (I will have to correct them). Also, some info need to be updated.

https://defencedb.com/article.php?article_id=17

And sorry for these long posts, I have the tendency to talk too much.

I don't think we're buying an F-35. It is too high a cost and has no industrial implications. And the latter is now a priority for us. But not in order for some old factories to survive, the Hungarian military industry ceased to exist. But to build something new, partly with Western investment. The goal is not only to supply the domestic market, but also to export for revenue. To what extent does this apply to the development of the Romanian army? There are not many similar trends from here. Do you want to update your Hungarian database?

 

[kamm]

Romanian here.
I will try to pretend that I didn't see all the "nice" comments towards Romanians on this forum, so I will try to keep my comments on the topic.

It is a mistake that some of you disregard the capabilities of the Romanian Armed Forces, it's your loss.

Personally, I am not happy with the acquisition of the second-hand F-16s, but it is a done thing now.
Third-hand in fact, as it was already posted here, the first 12 airframes were manufactured in 1983-1984 and also used by the Americans before they give them to the Portuguese.
Nevertheless, these fighters are not that bad as some of you picture and they are at least at the level of your Gripens.

All of your airplanes are from 1983-1984.

And no, they are not even close in terms of BVR, EW and your planes essentially lack any kind of modern networking (sans the most basic link16 at best.)

The airframes were totally refurbished in Portugal so at the time when Romania received them, each airframe had a total lifespan of 4,000 hours of flight left.

I'm not sure what "totally" refurbishing means when compared to refurbishing but it's the same circa 40 years old airframe, with all the hours flown.

At an average of 1.5 pilots per plane and each with 130 hours of flight, each aircraft can be used for 20 years.

Well, if there's money to fly and for fuel, that is.

I also think that's worse than the hours our Gripen flew in the past, back when we completely neglected the army...?
The only lower annoual number I know today is the Austrians but they pretty much gave up on their air force.

These fighters have the AN / APG-66V (2) A radar with a detection range of approximately 115 km similar to the PS-05 / A radar on the Gripen C / D which has a detection range of about 120 km.

Err, no, not really. Your radar is a truly outdated, old crap EOL'ed long time ago versus the Gripen's latest prev-gen (non-AESA), modern radar.

1. It's a 1970s radar design. Primary air-combat mode is look-down, with a range of 50-60km. The difference between the couple of air-combat modes is the angle, nothing more as I recall. The v2 bumped the range to approx 85km.

2. The Gripen's radar was designed in the 90s, by default it had an approx 120km range. It had also better angles and modes right off the bat. The update MS20 Mk3 added MBDA’s Meteor BVR air-to-air missile and SDB to the existing list of available weapons, as it is often mentioned, but it also added NATO's latest enhanced Link 16 for situational awareness, a new TIDLS link mode was added to enhance real-time FAC link capability during CAS missions, it expanded the functions of the pilot’s helmet-mounted sight, added support for a new infrared recon pod and introduced a new automater GCA system (ground collision avoidance) and also bumped the radar range at least over 150km (though some Saab communique dropped 150% range upgrade, solely due to the brand new sw algorithm, taking advantage of the new computer unit's much higher computational power.)

Armament of the Romanian F-16s include:

• 30 x AIM 120 AMRAAM C6 (later upgraded to AMRAAM-C7)
• 60 x AIM 9M Sidewinder
• 18 x AGM 65H Maverick

These weapons were bought with the first batch of 12 aircrafts.
Also Sniper Targeting Pods were bought

Later on Romania also bought 10 x AIM-9X Sidewinder Block II missiles.
Very few but it's a start.

So, I see that one user here thinks that the Hungarian Gripens will wipe the floor with the Romanian F-16s.

Pretty easily.
You have no radar to match, you have no AEW&C to help them out and you have almoat zero networking.
Unless you want to engage in dogfight you are dead in the water in BVR.
Oh wait, in dogfight we have the 27mm Mauser v your 20mm and far better turning rate... damn, that won't work either.

And that's with assuming you will get your pilots properly trained in the next 3-4 years... we shall see, right?

Dude, don't be so arrogant, the sides aren't disproportionate at all. And you have only 14 Gripens, and Gripen is not Eurofighter or Rafale.

It's pretty telling that you think EF and Rafale are better than the Gripen.

Pal, no offense but your old planes are blind as a bat compared to the Gripen, EF or Rafale.
Seriously, you bought a Block 20, a model Europe is retiring already in droves because it has no chance against modern planes.

Had you bought at least a Block 50 you'd have a fighting chance - but your corrupt and/or incompetent politicians, as always, sold you out.

Gripens fly with TIDLS for decades now, their sophisticated, real-time peer-to-peer networked combat mode; previously Viggens had it and even Drakens had networked warfare.
Again, this is not a "will have" capability but an existing networked warfare system in daily use for 60 years.

They can target you BVR, launch and you won't even know a missile is on its way until it's too late, the missile will fly without turning on its radar until the very end (no-escape zone), guided by another or a third Gripen far away, outside of the launch range, while the silent, launching Gripen banks out and leaves, you won't even know he was there. And then comes the next from a different direction and so on.

Unlike broadcasts like the much slower Link 16 the native Gripen TDILS works as a high-speed ,real-time, always-on p2p network and well over 500km between fighters thus the only way to disrupt it if you put an enormous jammer and decrypt capacity between them, in the air.
Even then, since each of these "hubs" allow at least 4 actively transmitting (TX) planes and infinite passive receivers (RX) it's practically impossible to disrupt it.

FYI this is just one of the many modes of using the Gripen's unique, p2p networked warfare system.

The entire philosophy and avionics automation is years ahead of the Block 20, pilots won't have to deal with a whole lot of things yours will have to continuously manage, during every mission.

Google it - TDILS - and be terrified.
[/QUOTE]

 

[kamm]

I don't want to be rude, but don't lie to yourself, you can't see the reality and you can't accept the truth because of the hatred you have for Romania.

Ping me back when you have integrated Meteor, IRIS-T, RBS or anything similar to your Block 20s and you bought at least a couple of AEW&C planes and they are in the air to give some kind of vision to these soon-to-be-retiree's bad eyesight.

FYI we are all waiting for the announcement of new Gripen E and how many squadrons there will be... did I mention there's an Mk4 upgrade lined up for the current Gripens, giving it, among other things, an AESA radar?

Ironically, you should also root for our two new squadrons of E because that would make your pols shit their pants and quickly order some decent, new Block 70s (which isn't enough against the Es but at least stands up to the C/D and your other neighbors.)

The same user stated that Hungary's GDP per capita is 50% more than that of Romania. (I hope I did read well and it was not a mistake due to Google translate)
Hungary has a GDP per capita slighty higher than Romania, but 50% difference? wtf. At least check on Wikipedia if nothing else.

It was an off-the-cuff remark, intended to be rather sarcastic about your constant lack of money but turns out I was not that off - that "slightly higher" is, in fact, $16k vs $12k:

LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You

For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.

bfy.tw

LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You

For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.

bfy.tw

And I want to also address some fake news that is spread here by some users:

1) "Romania's Patriot systems are in control of the Americans"
This is totally fake. Romania ordered a total of 7 fire units, 3 or 4 of them have already been paid, only the first fire unit arrived in the country yet.
Romanian military personnel have been trained and are still trained in order to operate the systems. These belong totally to Romania, 4 fire units for the Air Force and 3 fire units for the Army.
On the other hand, the Aegis Ashore base in Deveselu, Romania, which has SM-3 missiles is owned and operated by the US Navy. That base is US property under NATO command.

I'm not sure who wrote that but if your staff is still in training then technically it is true, it's under American command, manned by our guys, isn't it?

2) Myth no.2: "Americans will not sell F-35 to Romania"
Again, completely wrong.
One of the reasons that Romania didn't buy additional F-16s yet is because US pressure to buy F-35s directly instead of additional used F-16s, just like Poland did. But Romanian officials acknowledged that there simply aren't money yet for F-35s because that if we buy F-35s now like Poland, it would mean delay of other major programs. So we stick to the additional F-16s now probably second-hand. Poland has a more than double budget.
Officially Romania plans to purchase F-35 since 2030.
And be sure that what Poland gets from the Americans, Romania will also get if it have the money. And the US will likely sell F-35s to any NATO ally if it has the money.

I used to agree with this sentiment under Trump but there's a significant change in Biden's realpolitik and I have a feeling you guys won't like the fact that they are laser-focusing on Germany in Europe now...

I'm not saying all your brownnosing was for nothing - hey, you got to spend $7B on some very expensive, shiny new toys, even most of the spending was unnecessary! - but it's a lesson for your pols that long-term alliances always beat invertebrate politics at the end.

Fun fact: do you know when did we have the last war against the Germans?

3) When Romania received the first 18 units of HIMARS launchers I read here that this is all Romania will get.
Again this is wrong, US delivers the HIMARS launchers as they are built.
The contract includes among others a total of 54 launchers and 54 ATACMS missiles.

Sure but you have to pay first. Something that's not your forte, to put it mildly...

PS: I am working on a military-themed website so I will also post a lot of articles about Hungary so I found this forum to inform myself about Hungarian acquisition programs.
And I will try to be totally unbiased and present the facts as they'll denaturate are the truth and not as some users do here when It comes to Romania.
I felt very bad when I read the topic about Romania on this forum.
Basically all of the bad things that happen in Romania are posted there and people laugh. I really wondered if the average-age of the users here is 14 or something like that, because some of them are above any limit. It is bad if they are adults and think the way they think.

It's a bit juvenile sometimes, for sure - but have you seen your sites...?

Anyway, if someone has any additional question about Romanian Military and it's acquisition programs I will try to answer as well as I can without denaturate the truth.
By the way this video about Hungary was posted by me:

[MEDIA = youtube] C0mE2pFZvSk [/ MEDIA]

Keep in mind that this was posted back in 2019 when many of the purchases were not yet announced at that time.

Start by checking what did TIDLS offer 20 years ago, when we ordered the Gripens.
When you're done, imagine how far they must have developed it since (which is all classified.)

It took us a long time to get to the point when we started leading NATO air policing but there is a reason why the Swedes market the Gripen as the "smart" fighter.

It may won't carry as many missiles as your Block 20 at once but yours won't even get a chance to aim those against current Gripens.

Not only that but it's also twice as expensive to fly when compared to the Gripen C/D, while also requiring a lot more new infra on the ground.

Frankly, you should have bought a Block 70 like the Slovaks and Bulgarians did... after spending over a cool billion on these banged-up old hardware and refurbishing them, all your neighbors will still fly a superior air force in the foreseeable future.
As I wrote earlier, it makes no sense to me.

 

[Kulso_54]

Nem maradhatna magyar a magyar fórum? No offense

A fórum magyar marad, de az információ többet ér legyen az akár milyen nyelv.