Román haderőfejlesztési program és hadiipar

[AndreiCT]

The latest news is that the UAV program will be launched (or a decision will be made) in 2022. At least one official of the Ministry of Defense said that but you will never know, they seem to switch the priority of the programs all the time.
So this is just another memorandum signed. Each UAV manufacturer seems to hurry to sign this kind of documents with a local company to increase the chances to win the tender.
From what I know regarding "UAV systems" is that generally, a UAV system is made of one ground control station and three UAVs. So if Romania will buy 7 systems, it will probably be 21 UAVs.

 

[Szittya]

The latest news is that the UAV program will be launched (or a decision will be made) in 2022. At least one official of the Ministry of Defense said that but you will never know, they seem to switch the priority of the programs all the time.
So this is just another memorandum signed. Each UAV manufacturer seems to hurry to sign this kind of documents with a local company to increase the chances to win the tender.
From what I know regarding "UAV systems" is that generally, a UAV system is made of one ground control station and three UAVs. So if Romania will buy 7 systems, it will probably be 21 UAVs.

Hát mi lehet nem fogjuk gyártani a nagyokat de a bevetés optimalizálás miatt nem is leszünk egy típusra utalva...

 

[SilvioD]

The latest news is that the UAV program will be launched (or a decision will be made) in 2022. At least one official of the Ministry of Defense said that but you will never know, they seem to switch the priority of the programs all the time.
So this is just another memorandum signed. Each UAV manufacturer seems to hurry to sign this kind of documents with a local company to increase the chances to win the tender.
From what I know regarding "UAV systems" is that generally, a UAV system is made of one ground control station and three UAVs. So if Romania will buy 7 systems, it will probably be 21 UAVs.

What do you know about these plans? MBT, IFV?? I see a big gap here.

 

[AndreiCT]

What do you know about these plans? MBT, IFV ?? I see a big gap here.

There's nothing new.
What I like about Hungary is that it announces something and buys it, then announces something else and buys it.
Romania is the opposite.

1) MBTs
A few years ago it was issued a Request for Information letter for 270 tanks.
Since then there were only rumors that the army will buy 54 Leopard 2s for start, then nothing happened.
Now there are rumors that Abrams will be acquired but no time frame was announced.
Either years and years will pass and no tank will be bought, either all of a sudden an announcement will be made that we will acquire some Abrams. This is how things work here.
When the time came I expect Abrams because there seems that our politicians immediately execute what the United States decides.

2) IFVs
In April 2021, the Parliament approved a list of 10 acquisition programs.
Among them: Tracked Infantry Fighting Vehicle
But as always, absolutely no other detail about this program.

And as a funny fact, in 2018-2019, when the AGILIS 8x8 was still on the table, the then Minister of Defense with the Head of the Armed Forces told Rheinmetall that they want to cancel the AGILIS program and instead buy 173 Puma IFVs.

So, there is no predictability in Romania's purchases, and the huge Patriot and HIMARS contracts need to be paid.
This year, I think only the Naval Strike Missile acquisition has been made, the 12 Black Hawks are for the Ministry of Interiors, not for the Ministry of Defense.

For the 2022-2024 the plans are for:

• Light 4x4 armored vehicles
• C4ISR system
• one or two squadrons of F-16s (probably old Norwegian A / B models)
• military satellites system
• UAVs

 

[dkes]

Újabb Block15-ösök vásárlása? Már egészen rutinjuk lesz benne. Még mindig azt érzem a csontjaimban, hogy 2030 környékén az a negyedik század is ilyen használt gépekből fog állni.

OK, hogy azok a gépek eredetileg Block15-ös - no de a legújabb MLU szerint felújítva mind ...

IAI Heron UAV gyártás, tervezés, fejlesztés, karbantartás Romániában:

IAI și IAR Brașov intră puternic în competiția pentru înzestrarea României cu UAV-uri: Drone Heron, fabricate în România la Brașov

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) a semnat un acord de cooperare cu compania română de apărare IAR-Brasov pentru producția de aeronave fără pilot (UAV). Acordul de cooperare le va permite celor două companii să ofere în România soluții UAV avansate, bazat

www.defenseromania.ro

Volt hír hogy vesznek 7 db-ot, gondolom most megállapodtak, hogy Brassóban gyártják, fejlesztik, szervizelik. Mondjuk ezt jó lett volna nekünk elhozni, nálunk hír sincs drónokról, nemhogy gyártás jönne.

Azt nem tudom, de az a gáz, hogy mi még mindig nem...

Mi asszem addig fogunk ezen a területen "piackutatni" meg várni a technológiai áttörést amíg már pl. az alábbi modellek lesznek divatban ...

 

[kamm]

The latest news is that the UAV program will be launched (or a decision will be made) in 2022. At least one official of the Ministry of Defense said that but you will never know, they seem to switch the priority of the programs all the time.
So this is just another memorandum signed.

Yes, signing memorandums seems to be the main part of the MoD's job description, they certainly do it at an impressive annual rate.

Each UAV manufacturer seems to hurry to sign this kind of documents with a local company to increase the chances to win the tender.
From what I know regarding "UAV systems" is that generally, a UAV system is made of one ground control station and three UAVs. So if Romania will buy 7 systems, it will probably be 21 UAVs.

Sure they will... when exactly?

 

[kamm]

OK, hogy azok a gépek eredetileg Block15-ös - no de a legújabb MLU szerint felújítva mind ...

Es? Ezzel a ~40 eves gepek Block 20 (?) szintre kerulnek mondjuk, tapsoljuk meg az MoD donteset, gyorsan tegyunk egy kocsogot a kocsogfara.

 

[kamm]

There's nothing new.
What I like about Hungary is that it announces something and buys it, then announces something else and buys it.
Romania is the opposite.

Bingo! I have introduced the concept of "Europe's India" around here, for being the country of endless announcements of approvals, announcement of announcement, approval of the announcement, announcement of signing an approval, announcement of "intent to order", singing a "memorandum", then announcement of signing the memorandum, announcing the approval of the intent to order then approving the announcement of the approval and so on... while it's certainly entertaining in case of India, it is rather pretty hilarious to see the same kind of constant nonsense streaming out of Romania, I think anyone in Europe will agree on this.

1) MBTs
A few years ago it was issued a Request for Information letter for 270 tanks.
Since then there were only rumors that the army will buy 54 Leopard 2s for start, then nothing happened.
Now there are rumors that Abrams will be acquired but no time frame was announced.
Either years and years will pass and no tank will be bought, either all of a sudden an announcement will be made that we will acquire some Abrams. This is how things work here.
When the time came I expect Abrams because there seems that our politicians immediately execute what the United States decides.

Spot on.
I bet your MoD will buy either a small amount of latest M1A2 export version at an insanely inflated price, or a ton of old M1A1s, spending somewhat less in total.

2) IFVs
In April 2021, the Parliament approved a list of 10 acquisition programs.
Among them: Tracked Infantry Fighting Vehicle
But as always, absolutely no other detail about this program.

And as a funny fact, in 2018-2019, when the AGILIS 8x8 was still on the table, the then Minister of Defense with the Head of the Armed Forces told Rheinmetall that they want to cancel the AGILIS program and instead buy 173 Puma IFVs.

Haha, I didn't even know this last part - beautiful, thank you.

So, there is no predictability in Romania's purchases, and the huge Patriot and HIMARS contracts need to be paid.
This year, I think only the Naval Strike Missile acquisition has been made, the 12 Black Hawks are for the Ministry of Interiors, not for the Ministry of Defense.

All that while the French are actually close to getting an aneurysm due to your gov screwing them into building a whole plant then backing out of ordering Airbus helis...

For the 2022-2024 the plans are for:

• Light 4x4 armored vehicles
• C4ISR system
• one or two squadrons of F-16s (probably old Norwegian A / B models)
• military satellites system
• UAVs

Aye' - let's add some more to the list! (Since we are deep into wishful thinking territory... )

 

[SilvioD]

There's nothing new.
What I like about Hungary is that it announces something and buys it, then announces something else and buys it.
Romania is the opposite.

Interesting. We don't always feel that way from the inside. The Rheinmetall business is moving fast, but with the Turks, the 4x4 business is pretty slow. Likewise, UAV from Turkey or Israel.

1) MBTs
A few years ago it was issued a Request for Information letter for 270 tanks.
Since then there were only rumors that the army will buy 54 Leopard 2s for start, then nothing happened.
Now there are rumors that Abrams will be acquired but no time frame was announced.
Either years and years will pass and no tank will be bought, either all of a sudden an announcement will be made that we will acquire some Abrams. This is how things work here.
When the time came I expect Abrams because there seems that our politicians immediately execute what the United States decides.

If I had to guess, I'd bet on Abrams, too. 270 seems like a pretty unrealistic amount. How functional is the TR85 now? 50-60?

2) IFVs
In April 2021, the Parliament approved a list of 10 acquisition programs.
Among them: Tracked Infantry Fighting Vehicle
But as always, absolutely no other detail about this program.

And as a funny fact, in 2018-2019, when the AGILIS 8x8 was still on the table, the then Minister of Defense with the Head of the Armed Forces told Rheinmetall that they want to cancel the AGILIS program and instead buy 173 Puma IFVs.

So, there is no predictability in Romania's purchases, and the huge Patriot and HIMARS contracts need to be paid.
This year, I think only the Naval Strike Missile acquisition has been made, the 12 Black Hawks are for the Ministry of Interiors, not for the Ministry of Defense.

I don't think this German direction works for you. I really don't remember such an example. Yet he would give himself in the case of Iohannis.

For the 2022-2024 the plans are for:

• Light 4x4 armored vehicles

I also read Americans here. Other?

• one or two squadrons of F-16s (probably old Norwegian A / B models)

I think this is a bad decision. Uncostly now, but old fighter, so they need to be replaced in 10 years.

• military satellites system

How is this program?

• UAVs

Heron. This is a good buy with local production. And Other?
Interesting, but we are also negotiating with the IAI. Probably Hermes 900. And there is the Turkish direction in parallel.

 

[SilvioD]

Interesting, but we are also negotiating with the IAI. Probably Hermes 900. And there is the Turkish direction in parallel.

Not IAI. Elbit. You also signed an agreement with them.

 

[kamm]

Not IAI. Elbit. You also signed an agreement with them.

Gyakran visszabeszel?

 

[AndreiCT]

@kamm funny as always
@SilvioD

1. Tanks

270 is the entire number estimated to replace all the TR-85s and T-55s.
Yes, it is impossible to buy 270 tanks at once, we are not Poland.
I guess that we will start just like Hungary with one or maybe two tank battalions (54 to 108 units).
And then buy more tanks over the years to a total of 270.

There are 54 pieces of TR-54M1 Bizonul. These are constantly maintained and I guess most of them are in working condition.
The entire park of TR-85M1 tanks has a high availability rate.
And there are a few hundreds of TR-85 Standard and T-55 on paper. Obviously, not all of them are in working condition.
But the Romanian Ministry of Defence doesn't make public how many armored vehicles are working or how many MiG-21s are still flying.

- Summary according to different sources:
54 x TR-85M1 Bizonul - active
235-315 x TR-85 Standard (on paper) - I don't know how many are active
43 x TR-580 - I don't know how many are active
285-495 x T-55AM/AM2 (on paper) - it is estimated that 108 are active (2 battalions)

2. Light 4x4 armored vehicles

Probably more Oshkosh L-ATV for the entire army, since Romania already ordered 120-130 L-ATVs for the Special Forces.
Renault also wants to sell us Arquus Sherpa vehicles.

3. F-16s

I am not happy with the possible acquisition of F-16s from Norway, but I guess it's better than nothing for us.
The ex-Portuguese ones were refurbished and still left with approx 4,000 flight hours each (approx. 20 years of use).
I think the Norwegians flew their machines more than the Portuguese so I don't know how much life they have in them.
And logically, with old second-hand machines, we are gonna spend more and more on maintenance and spare parts.

The positive thing is that even the old A/B variants can be further modernized to the F-16V standard with the AN/APG-83 SABR radar and better avionics (like Taiwan is doing).
Don't know if it is positive or bad, but if we look at Romania's history with the MiG-21, I wouldn't wonder if we will be able to fly these things until the year 2100
Maybe 80 years from now, the Americans will praise us for keeping the F-16 legend alive.

The official plan is to buy a first squadron or more of F-35s around 2028-2030. But who knows.

4. Satellites

I will quote what I wrote on my site some time ago:

"One of the most ambitious plans announced in recent years by the Romanian Ministry of Defense is to have its own satellite network.
The Romanian Ministry of National Defense (MApN) publicly announced in November 2018 that it wants to have its own geostationary telecommunications satellite starting with 2022.
The Ministry of National Defense made public the fact that in the 2009-2018 period it spent approximately 7.5 million euros for renting and providing satellite communications services.
This satellite will be the first in a future satellite system meant to serve Romania's National Security System."

To be honest, this program seems insane because:
They say that they paid to allies 7.5 million in 9 years (2009-2018) for satellite services. This is not much.
Now they want to spend hundreds of millions on satellites when a satellite has a life of 15 years or so.
It doesn't make sense. I think Poland started its military satellite program, but the Poles have more money.

I guess every military needs satellite communication capability, but it's not a topic I am knowledgeable in.
I noticed though that some of the Piranha 5 have General Dynamics SATCOM On-The-Move Antennas installed on them.

5. UAVs

Three offers so far:

• Elbit Hermes 450
• Thales Watchkeeper X
• IAI Heron

I will stop here since I have the tendency to talk too much and I broke your forum with English (If I translate Romanian to Hungarian isn't quite accurate).

 

[Vogon]

OK, hogy azok a gépek eredetileg Block15-ös - no de a legújabb MLU szerint felújítva mind ...

Tudom, és nem kételkedem benne, hogy összeraktak egy csomagot, hogy technológiailag fejlesszék. Sok sikert kívánok hozzá, hogy olyan gépet csináljanak belőle, amilyet szívük szeretne. De az anyagfáradás ellen nehéz dolgozni. Ha menetrend szerint beszereznek az évtized közepéig még két használt századot, akkor az évtized végén be kell szerezniük még kettőt. Az egyiket a tervezett F-35 helyett, a másikat a most üzemelő század helyett.

I don't think this German direction works for you. I really don't remember such an example. Yet he would give himself in the case of Iohannis.

Pedig erről volt itt is szó nem is egyszer. Ez nem feltételes mód, Berlin már elmeszelte, mert a történet úgy szólt, hogy nem fizetnék ki az Agilis fejlesztésére szánt... és írásban odaígért pénzt, hanem abból vennének helyette kész Pumákat.
Merkel meg azt mondta, hogy szívesen ad el Bukarestnek Pumákat. Fizessék ki az Agilis árát! (Annyi engedményt tett, hogy nem kell az aláírt szerződés teljes darabszámát, csak csökkentettet és ha végre kész lesz az úszó csoda, akkor a németek is vásárolnak belőle Romániában a vegyesvállalatban gyártottat.)

I noticed though that some of the Piranha 5 have General Dynamics SATCOM On-The-Move Antennas installed on them.

Ez dicséretes dolog. Ezek szerint az a gép nem esett áldozatul a "mennyit engedsz a feléből" hozzáállásnak. Úgy fogalmaznék, hogy ez üdítő kivétel.

 

[dkes]

@kamm funny as always
@SilvioD

1. Tanks

270 is the entire number estimated to replace all the TR-85s and T-55s.
Yes, it is impossible to buy 270 tanks at once, we are not Poland.
I guess that we will start just like Hungary with one or maybe two tank battalions (54 to 108 units).
And then buy more tanks over the years to a total of 270.

There are 54 pieces of TR-54M1 Bizonul. These are constantly maintained and I guess most of them are in working condition.
The entire park of TR-85M1 tanks has a high availability rate.
And there are a few hundreds of TR-85 Standard and T-55 on paper. Obviously, not all of them are in working condition.
But the Romanian Ministry of Defence doesn't make public how many armored vehicles are working or how many MiG-21s are still flying.

- Summary according to different sources:
54 x TR-85M1 Bizonul - active
235-315 x TR-85 Standard (on paper) - I don't know how many are active
43 x TR-580 - I don't know how many are active
285-495 x T-55AM/AM2 (on paper) - it is estimated that 108 are active (2 battalions)

2. Light 4x4 armored vehicles

Probably more Oshkosh L-ATV for the entire army, since Romania already ordered 120-130 L-ATVs for the Special Forces.
Renault also wants to sell us Arquus Sherpa vehicles.

3. F-16s

I am not happy with the possible acquisition of F-16s from Norway, but I guess it's better than nothing for us.
The ex-Portuguese ones were refurbished and still left with approx 4,000 flight hours each (approx. 20 years of use).
I think the Norwegians flew their machines more than the Portuguese so I don't know how much life they have in them.
And logically, with old second-hand machines, we are gonna spend more and more on maintenance and spare parts.

The positive thing is that even the old A/B variants can be further modernized to the F-16V standard with the AN/APG-83 SABR radar and better avionics (like Taiwan is doing).
Don't know if it is positive or bad, but if we look at Romania's history with the MiG-21, I wouldn't wonder if we will be able to fly these things until the year 2100
Maybe 80 years from now, the Americans will praise us for keeping the F-16 legend alive.

The official plan is to buy a first squadron or more of F-35s around 2028-2030. But who knows.

4. Satellites

I will quote what I wrote on my site some time ago:

"One of the most ambitious plans announced in recent years by the Romanian Ministry of Defense is to have its own satellite network.
The Romanian Ministry of National Defense (MApN) publicly announced in November 2018 that it wants to have its own geostationary telecommunications satellite starting with 2022.
The Ministry of National Defense made public the fact that in the 2009-2018 period it spent approximately 7.5 million euros for renting and providing satellite communications services.
This satellite will be the first in a future satellite system meant to serve Romania's National Security System."

To be honest, this program seems insane because:
They say that they paid to allies 7.5 million in 9 years (2009-2018) for satellite services. This is not much.
Now they want to spend hundreds of millions on satellites when a satellite has a life of 15 years or so.
It doesn't make sense. I think Poland started its military satellite program, but the Poles have more money.

I guess every military needs satellite communication capability, but it's not a topic I am knowledgeable in.
I noticed though that some of the Piranha 5 have General Dynamics SATCOM On-The-Move Antennas installed on them.

5. UAVs

Three offers so far:

• Elbit Hermes 450
• Thales Watchkeeper X
• IAI Heron

I will stop here since I have the tendency to talk too much and I broke your forum with English (If I translate Romanian to Hungarian isn't quite accurate).

You mentioned several times that there are 54 MBTs in a battalion? What is the reason of it? I mean e.g. in Romania there are 54 MBTs in a battalion?

However we ordered 54 pieces of Leopard 2 MBTs but interestingly these vehicles will be not organized into one battalion. I mean we follow the german logic. Therefore:

• 44 pcs of Leo 2A7+ will be in one battalion,
• 12 pcs of refurbished Leo 2A4s are for only training purposes ...

So, e.g. in Hungary there are not 54, 104 etc. vehicles in one battalion. If we have second Leo 2 batallion then it will contain 44 MBTs as well ...

 

[AndreiCT]

@dkes
Yes, it differs from country to country.
In Romania, we have 54 vehicles in one battalion.
Examples: 54 x TR-84M1 MBTs, 54 x LAROM MLRs, 54 x HIMARS on order (18 units received so far).
And in the Air Force, we have 16 fighters per squadron.

 

[AndreiCT]

I remembered another Romanian acquisition that I don't know if was posted here, as it also seems to have been overlooked in Romania too.
But it is quite important one.
As part of the HIMARS deal, in 2020 Romania additionally ordered six AN/TPQ-53 mobile counter-battery radars from Lockheed Martin.
These mobile AESA radars with a range of 60 km are used to detect the firing positions of enemy artillery systems including rocket artillery, howitzers, and mortars.
They can also detect UAVs.
The deal for these six radars is $175 million additionally to the $1.5 billion for the HIMARS contract.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/07/17/2020-15505/arms-sales-notification

 

[Vogon]

I remembered another Romanian acquisition that I don't know if was posted here, as it also seems to have been overlooked in Romania too.
But it is quite important one.
As part of the HIMARS deal, in 2020 Romania additionally ordered six AN/TPQ-53 mobile counter-battery radars from Lockheed Martin.
These mobile AESA radars with a range of 60 km are used to detect the firing positions of enemy artillery systems including rocket artillery, howitzers, and mortars.
They can also detect UAVs.
The deal for these six radars is $175 million additionally to the $1.5 billion for the HIMARS contract.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/07/17/2020-15505/arms-sales-notification

A környéken úgy tudjuk, hogy mindenki beszerzett ilyet. És valamiért egyik országban sem láttam különösebb propagandáját, senki nem tagadja, de nincsenek intenzív kampányok arról, hogy milyen jó lesz és csodaverő. Szemben mondjuk egy IFV vagy MBT beszerzéssel, amiről tényleg megírják a Háború és Béke trilógia változatát. (Nagyobb, látványosabb és sokkal többe kerül. Jobban el lehet adni.)

Nálunk a harci lovakon van -úgy tudom- ugyan ez. Ki lesz alakítva mindenhol a rendszer, ezért nagy kérdés a fórumon, hogy a nehéz dandáron kívül a többiekhez milyen tüzérség fog menni. Elég-e pusztán a teherautó nyújtotta mobilitás és a vezető kabin páncélozása vagy magát az ágyút is kell forgó toronyba szerelve. De ez ellentmondásos kérdés, mert a könnyű dandár légi szállíthatósági feltétele és harcászata néha ütközik a közepes dandár megengedőbb követelményeivel.

Mindenki nagyon várja, hogy a D-20-asok végleg kikopjanak és felálljon az új rendszer.

 

[Cyrus Grissom]

There's nothing new.
What I like about Hungary is that it announces something and buys it, then announces something else and buys it.
Romania is the opposite.

1) MBTs
A few years ago it was issued a Request for Information letter for 270 tanks.
Since then there were only rumors that the army will buy 54 Leopard 2s for start, then nothing happened.
Now there are rumors that Abrams will be acquired but no time frame was announced.
Either years and years will pass and no tank will be bought, either all of a sudden an announcement will be made that we will acquire some Abrams. This is how things work here.
When the time came I expect Abrams because there seems that our politicians immediately execute what the United States decides.

2) IFVs
In April 2021, the Parliament approved a list of 10 acquisition programs.
Among them: Tracked Infantry Fighting Vehicle
But as always, absolutely no other detail about this program.

And as a funny fact, in 2018-2019, when the AGILIS 8x8 was still on the table, the then Minister of Defense with the Head of the Armed Forces told Rheinmetall that they want to cancel the AGILIS program and instead buy 173 Puma IFVs.

So, there is no predictability in Romania's purchases, and the huge Patriot and HIMARS contracts need to be paid.
This year, I think only the Naval Strike Missile acquisition has been made, the 12 Black Hawks are for the Ministry of Interiors, not for the Ministry of Defense.

For the 2022-2024 the plans are for:

• Light 4x4 armored vehicles
• C4ISR system
• one or two squadrons of F-16s (probably old Norwegian A / B models)
• military satellites system
• UAVs

Tudtommal ez magyar fórum, kéretik magyarul írni. Értem az angolt, de akkor is. Csevegjetek angolul privátban.

 

[Törölt tag 2577]

Tudtommal ez magyar fórum, kéretik magyarul írni. Értem az angolt, de akkor is. Csevegjetek angolul privátban.

Andrei román és gondolom, hogy nem beszél magyarul. Teljesen korrekt, és semmi bántót nem írt. Ha zavar az angol, akkor ugord át a kommentet.

 

[dkes]

Tudtommal ez magyar fórum, kéretik magyarul írni. Értem az angolt, de akkor is. Csevegjetek angolul privátban.

Andrei román és gondolom, hogy nem beszél magyarul. Teljesen korrekt, és semmi bántót nem írt. Ha zavar az angol, akkor ugord át a kommentet.

Van igazság benne amit ír. Itt azért, ha idegennyelvű hír is hozva - bármilyen nyelven - akkor azért legalább egy magyar nyelvű összefoglalót ír mindenki, hogy miről szól. Esetleg lényeges részről Google fordító kedvcsinálónak (így gyorsabb).

Bár a magyar Google fordítás a "borzalmas kategória", de valóban elvárható esetleg, hogy az idegennyelvű kolléga másolja be a Google fordító eredményét (az eredeti angol nyelvű írása mellé) és ne adott esetben a fél fórumnak kelljen. Írom ezt úgy, hogy nekem az angol nem gond ...