A II. világháború (1939 - 1945)

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    Ezen témában - a fórumon rendhagyó módon - az oldal üzemeltetője saját álláspontja, meggyőződése alapján nem enged bizonyos véleményeket, mivel meglátása szerint az káros a járványhelyzet enyhítését célzó törekvésekre.

    Kérünk, hogy a vírus veszélyességét kétségbe vonó, oltásellenes véleményed más platformon fejtsd ki. Nálunk ennek nincs helye. Az ilyen hozzászólásokért 1 alkalommal figyelmeztetés jár, majd folytatása esetén a témáról letiltás. Arra is kérünk, hogy a fórum más témáiba ne vigyétek át, mert azért viszont már a fórum egészéről letiltás járhat hosszabb-rövidebb időre.

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    Az új szabályzat teljes szövege itt olvasható el.

Pogány

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2018. április 26.
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Csak arra akartam rámutatni, hogy nem azért használtak benzinmotorokat, mert hülyék voltak. Az ilyen döntéseket mindig a döntéshozó szemszögéből kell nèzni. A hàború vegkimenetén nem változtatott volna, ha a németek csak dizelmotorokat hasznàlnak. Az amik milyen jól megvoltak egy csillagmotorral (!) a Shermannban. Viszont nem is patikai mennyiségekben gyártottàk őket....
OFF :)
Ahogy Dolfi mondta kifakadásában:

"A tábornokaimnak fogalmuk sincsen egy háború gazdasági vonatkozásairól"

Mikor elküldte a kaukázusi olajmezőkre a haderőt.
 
T

Törölt tag 1711

Guest
T-34-85 versus German King Tiger

One of the most memorable tank engagements of the war occurred towards the end of the Lvov Sandomierz offensive in Poland. On the evening of 11 August 1944, Lt. Aleksandr P. Oskin of the 53rd Guards Fastov Tank Brigade (6th Guards Tank Corps) was ordered to patrol the Polish village of Ogledow where he was expected to link up with the unit's 2nd Battalion. The patrol included a team of tank infantry which had been riding on his vehicle through the Byelorussian and Polish fighting since June. On reaching the village, no friendly tanks were located, and German troops were approaching the opposite end of the town.
Oskin informed the brigade commander and was told to take up a defensive position and monitor the German troops. The tank hull was already well camouflaged in a field of corn, and Oskin's crew and the tank infantry camouflaged the turret with corn stalks. A German tank column entered Ogledow that evening and shot it up, but halted after dark. Although Oskin did not know it at the time, the tank unit was a platoon from sPzAbt 501, the first German tank unit on the Eastern Front with Hitler's latest 'wonder weapon', the new King Tiger heavy tank. The unit had disembarked earlier at Kielce with 45 King Tigers but by the time it had reached the vicinity of Ogledow on the evening of 11 August 1944, it was down to only eight tanks. The rest had broken down during the 45 km road march, mainly due to reduction gear failures. On the morning of 12 August, the King Tiger battalion was ordered into action to help crush the Soviet bridgehead over the Vistula River near Sandomierz. Sitting in his tank, Oskin saw the King Tigers move out of the village. They appeared to be Panthers, but Oskin recalled an intelligence briefing in which the Soviet crews were warned to keep an eye out for a new German heavy tank.
In the event, the Germans had not spotted Oskin's well camouflaged tank, and they were moving down a road where their more vulnerable sides would be exposed. Oskin ordered the loader, A. Khalyshev, to load one of his precious BR-365P hypervelocity rounds. When the King Tigers had closed to 200 m and were broadside, Oskin ordered his gunner, Abubakir Merkhaidorov, to fire. The round hit the turret side of the second tank, seemingly without effect. Actually, it had penetrated and killed some of the crew, but this was not immediately apparent to the Russians. Oskin's tank fired two more BR-365 AP rounds against the turret, and in frustration he finally ordered up another round of sub-calibre ammunition and told the gunner to hit the rear fuel tank. The King Tiger finally began to burn.
By this time, the lead King Tiger had begun to swing its massive turret looking for its tormentor, but in all the dust raised by the impacts of the 85 mm gun, they could not find a target. Oskin's tank fired three rounds at the front of the turret, which bounced off without effect. The fourth round penetrated the turret ring, and the lead King Tiger began to burn from an ammunition fire. The third King Tiger, blind in the smoke from the fuel fire on the second King Tiger, began to back off the road at top speed. Oskin detonated the MDSh smoke cans at the back of his tank to give himself some cover, and began chasing after the third King Tiger. The fleeter T34-85 soon caught up and Oskin managed to manoeuvre around to the rear of the King Tiger where they knocked it out with a shot into the engine compartment through the thin rear armour.
On returning to the road, one of the King Tigers had stopped burning, so Oskin fired at it again with his last round of hypervelocity ammunition. Two of the King Tigers subsequently suffered catastrophic ammunition fires which blew off their turrets. German losses were eleven dead of the fifteen crew including Lt. Karnetzki and Wieman, and some of the survivors were taken prisoner by Oskin's tank riders. The Tiger battalion did not know what had hit them, and their losses were attributed to 'massive anti-tank defences'. The third King Tiger was later recovered and sent to the Red Army tank proving ground at Kubinka, where today it still rests in the armoured force museum. Lt. Oskin was decorated with the highest Red Army award, the Hero of the Soviet Union gold star.
 

gorkamorka

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2021. május 13.
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Volt dizelmotoros nyugat tank,konkrétan a Sherman készült dizellel is,amit főleg a szovjeteknek gyártottak.M4A2ből 8000db készült.
No meg a tengerészgyalogságnak. A hadseregnek viszont parancsban adták ki, hogy csak benzinest használhatnak az európai hadszíntéren.
Érdekességképpen, volt egy második dízeles változat, az M4A6. És ezt is csillagmotor hajtotta. Csak 75 készült, harcokban nem vett részt.
 
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Kurfürst

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2017. szeptember 14.
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Christos military and intelligence corner: WWII Myths - T-34 Best Tank of the war (chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com)

Reliability problems

The T-34 was supposed to be a simple and rugged vehicle that seldom broke down. Authors like to compare it to the more complex German tanks that supposedly broke down often. The concept of the T-34 as a reliable tank is another myth of WWII.
The majority of vehicles in 1941 were lost due to equipment malfunction. The same reliability problems continued during the period 1942-44. The evacuation and relocation of industrial facilities combined with the loss of skilled workers could only lead to the fall of reliability.

In 1941 T-34 tanks often had to carry a spare transmission strapped on the back to counter equipment failures (10). In 1942 the situation worsened since many vehicles could only cover small distances before breaking down. In the summer of 1942 the following Stalin order was issued to units (11):

‘Our armored forces and their units frequently suffer greater losses through mechanical breakdowns than they do in battle. For example, at Stalingrad Front in six days twelve of our tank brigades lost 326 out of their 400 tanks. Of those about 260 owed to mechanical problems. Many of the tanks were abandoned on the battlefield. Similar instances can be observed on other fronts. Since such a high incidence of mechanical defects is implausible, the Supreme Headquarters sees in it covert sabotage and wrecking by certain elements in the tank crews who try to exploit small mechanical troubles to avoid battle.’

Henceforth, every tank leaving the battlefield for alleged mechanical reasons was to be gone over by technicians, and if sabotage was suspected, the crews were to be put into tank punishment companies or "degraded to the infantry" and put into infantry punishment companies.'


The constant complaints from the front forced the authorities to investigate the problems with T-34 production. In September 1942 a conference was held at the Ural tank factory by the Commissariat of tank industry (12). The conference was headed by Major General Kotin, People’s commissar of the tank industry of the USSR and chief designer of heavy tank ‘Kliment Voroshilov’. In his speech he said:

''Now ... there are a lot of complains about the T-34. You all know the reasons for flaws in the tanks. The first reason –inadequate visibility from the tank; the second reason, and this is the weak link that always accompanies our vehicle in the Army – final drive. And third, the main issue that we have today – insufficient strength of the idler wheel's crank. These issues are the major defects of the T-34 today. Having considered these issues from engineering and technological points of view I would like to discuss another issue, the one that directly resulted solely from our production deficiencies. They are: negligence during production of combat vehicles in the factories, carelessness of assembly and quality control of vehicles. As a result during combat employment our tanks sometimes cannot reach the front lines, or after getting to the territory occupied by the enemy for conducting combat operations, sometimes they are forced to remain on enemy's territory because of some little things... We have to make sure that as a result of this conference all shortcoming will be uncovered and following this conference all corrections in the tank will be implemented in the shortest possible time...

Recently comrade Morozov and I visited comrade Stalin. Comrade Stalin drew our attention to the fact that enemy tanks cover a lot of ground freely, and our machines although are better, but have a disadvantage: after 50 or 80 kilometers march they require repair. What are we talking about? It is because of control gear; also, as comrade Stalin said, because of drive gear, and he compared it with the Pz.III, which is in service with the German army, and which is inferior in armor protection, and in other features, and in crew's layout, and does not have such a fine engine, which the T-34 got, moreover its engine is gasoline, not diesel. But the question аrises – why its drive gear is developed better?

Comrade Stalin gave directives to engineers, to the People's Commissar comrade Zaltsman, to factory's CEOs and ordered them to fix all defects in the shortest time. A special order of the State Defense Committee has been issued on the subject as well as directives of the People's Commissariat of the Tank Industry. Despite all these resolutions have been made by Government and orders of the People's Commissar of the Tank Industry, despite repeated instructions from army units and from Main Directorate of the Armored Forces, which is in charge of combat vehicles operation, nevertheless all of these defects on vehicles are going on... We have to reveal all these flaws, and suggestions have to be made on at this conference how to modify machine component better and faster in order to make the T-34 tank, which is recognized in the army as a good tank, even better fighting machine.''


The situation continued to be problematic even in 1943-44.

There were constant problems with the gearbox and the engine filters. The Aberdeen evaluators noted:

On the T-34 the transmission is also very poor. When it was being operated, the cogs completely fell to pieces (on all the cogwheels). A chemical analysis of the cogs on the cogwheels showed that their thermal treatment is very poor and does not in any way meet American standards for such mechanisms.’
The deficiency of our diesels is the criminally poor air cleaners on the T-34. The Americans consider that only a saboteur could have constructed such a device

The same problems were identified in a T-34/85 built in 1945. The US study ‘Engineering analysis of the Russian T34/85 tank’ noted (13):

Wholly inadequate engine intake air cleaners could be expected to allow early engine failure due to dust intake and the resulting abrasive wear. Several hundred miles in very dusty operation would probably be accompanied by severe engine power loss.

The same study says in page 451 about the transmission:

The transmission had by American standards already failed, although with extreme care it could have been used further. Teeth ends on all gears were battered as the result of clash shifting. Many pieces of gear teeth had been broken off and were in the transmission oil. The failure is due to inadequate design, since excellent steel was used through the transmission.

The mental image of the T-34 travelling hundreds of kilometers without stopping is fantasy.

A German unit that used the T-34/76 model ’43 in combat noted (14):

Regardless of our limited experience, it can be stated that the Russian tanks are not suitable for long road marches and high speeds. It has turned out that the highest speed that can be achieved is 10 to 12 km/hr. It is also necessary on marches to halt every half hour for at least 15 to 20 minutes to let the machine cool down. Difficulties and breakdowns of the steering clutches have occurred with all the new Beute-Panzer. In difficult terrain, on the march, and during the attack, in which the Panzer must be frequently steered and turned, within a short time the steering clutches overheat and are coated with oil. The result is that the clutches don't grip and the Panzer is no longer manoeuvrable. After they have cooled, the clutches must be rinsed with a lot of fuel.

Soviet tests on newly built T-34’s (15) showed that in April 1943 only 10.1% could complete a 330km trial and in June ’43 this went down to 7.7%. The percentage stayed below 50% till October 1943 when it rose to 78%, in the next month it dropped to 57% and in the period December ’43 - February ’44 the average was 82%.

Preliminary inspection of tanks built at the Ural tank factory No 183 (largest producer of the T-34) showed that in 1942 only 7% were free of defects, in 1943 14% and in 1944 29.4%. In 1943 the main problem was damage to the gear teeth (16)

The V-2 engine had serious reliability problems (17). Depending on the source in 1941 it supposedly lasted for 100 hours on average (18). This figure went down in 1942 since some T-34’s could not travel more then 30-35 km.

The T-34 tested at the Aberdeen centre was built at the best factory using materials of superior quality but its engine stopped working after 72.5 hours. This was not due to American interference as there was a Soviet mechanic (engineer Matveev) charged with maintaining it. Still it was much better than the standard tanks since it covered a distance of 343km. According to the head of the Armored Directorate of the Red Army N.Fedorenko, the average mileage of the T-34 to overhaul during the war, did not exceed 200 kilometers. This was considered adequate since the T-34’s service life at the front was considerably less. For example in 1942 only 66km. In that sense the T-34 was indeed ‘reliable’ because it was destroyed before it had a chance to break down on its own!

Still there are examples of T-34’s breaking down during assaults even late in the war (19). For instance the 5th Guards Tank army in 1943 lost as much as 31.5% of its tanks during its march to Prokhorovka. In August ’43 the 1st Tank army lost 50% of its tanks due to malfunction. As late as the second half of 1944 tank units tried to replace engines with more than 30 hours of operation before a major attack.

All WWII tanks had a hard time when travelling and they needed repairs and maintenance or they broke down.
 

aquarell

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2015. január 20.
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T-34-85 versus German King Tiger

One of the most memorable tank engagements of the war occurred towards the end of the Lvov Sandomierz offensive in Poland. On the evening of 11 August 1944, Lt. Aleksandr P. Oskin of the 53rd Guards Fastov Tank Brigade (6th Guards Tank Corps) was ordered to patrol the Polish village of Ogledow where he was expected to link up with the unit's 2nd Battalion. The patrol included a team of tank infantry which had been riding on his vehicle through the Byelorussian and Polish fighting since June. On reaching the village, no friendly tanks were located, and German troops were approaching the opposite end of the town.
Oskin informed the brigade commander and was told to take up a defensive position and monitor the German troops. The tank hull was already well camouflaged in a field of corn, and Oskin's crew and the tank infantry camouflaged the turret with corn stalks. A German tank column entered Ogledow that evening and shot it up, but halted after dark. Although Oskin did not know it at the time, the tank unit was a platoon from sPzAbt 501, the first German tank unit on the Eastern Front with Hitler's latest 'wonder weapon', the new King Tiger heavy tank. The unit had disembarked earlier at Kielce with 45 King Tigers but by the time it had reached the vicinity of Ogledow on the evening of 11 August 1944, it was down to only eight tanks. The rest had broken down during the 45 km road march, mainly due to reduction gear failures. On the morning of 12 August, the King Tiger battalion was ordered into action to help crush the Soviet bridgehead over the Vistula River near Sandomierz. Sitting in his tank, Oskin saw the King Tigers move out of the village. They appeared to be Panthers, but Oskin recalled an intelligence briefing in which the Soviet crews were warned to keep an eye out for a new German heavy tank.
In the event, the Germans had not spotted Oskin's well camouflaged tank, and they were moving down a road where their more vulnerable sides would be exposed. Oskin ordered the loader, A. Khalyshev, to load one of his precious BR-365P hypervelocity rounds. When the King Tigers had closed to 200 m and were broadside, Oskin ordered his gunner, Abubakir Merkhaidorov, to fire. The round hit the turret side of the second tank, seemingly without effect. Actually, it had penetrated and killed some of the crew, but this was not immediately apparent to the Russians. Oskin's tank fired two more BR-365 AP rounds against the turret, and in frustration he finally ordered up another round of sub-calibre ammunition and told the gunner to hit the rear fuel tank. The King Tiger finally began to burn.
By this time, the lead King Tiger had begun to swing its massive turret looking for its tormentor, but in all the dust raised by the impacts of the 85 mm gun, they could not find a target. Oskin's tank fired three rounds at the front of the turret, which bounced off without effect. The fourth round penetrated the turret ring, and the lead King Tiger began to burn from an ammunition fire. The third King Tiger, blind in the smoke from the fuel fire on the second King Tiger, began to back off the road at top speed. Oskin detonated the MDSh smoke cans at the back of his tank to give himself some cover, and began chasing after the third King Tiger. The fleeter T34-85 soon caught up and Oskin managed to manoeuvre around to the rear of the King Tiger where they knocked it out with a shot into the engine compartment through the thin rear armour.
On returning to the road, one of the King Tigers had stopped burning, so Oskin fired at it again with his last round of hypervelocity ammunition. Two of the King Tigers subsequently suffered catastrophic ammunition fires which blew off their turrets. German losses were eleven dead of the fifteen crew including Lt. Karnetzki and Wieman, and some of the survivors were taken prisoner by Oskin's tank riders. The Tiger battalion did not know what had hit them, and their losses were attributed to 'massive anti-tank defences'. The third King Tiger was later recovered and sent to the Red Army tank proving ground at Kubinka, where today it still rests in the armoured force museum. Lt. Oskin was decorated with the highest Red Army award, the Hero of the Soviet Union gold star.
A szovjet Wittmann...:)
 
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gorkamorka

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According to the head of the Armored Directorate of the Red Army N.Fedorenko, the average mileage of the T-34 to overhaul during the war, did not exceed 200 kilometers.
Na és ez az ami nagyon durva!
A német típusok közül, a kifejezetten megbízhatatlannak tartott Panther is sokkal többet bírt. A kihajtóműveket leszámítva az erőátviteli rendszer 5000 kilométerre volt tervezve, általában ezt teljesítette is. De a motor is elment ~1500 kilométert, jó vezetőkkel a kihajtóművek is ennyit bírtak.
És ez volt a legkevésbé megbízható német típus...
 
M

molnibalage

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Ahogy Dolfi mondta kifakadásában:

"A tábornokaimnak fogalmuk sincsen egy háború gazdasági vonatkozásairól"

Mikor elküldte a kaukázusi olajmezőkre a haderőt.
És az a rész hol van, amikor összevissza rendelte a páncélos erőket azon a tájon '42-ben, annak függvényében ami éppen eszébe jutott.
Hatalmas szerencse, hogy hitler egy ordas vadbarom volt, de ellenfelei sokszor még nála is ostobábbak voltak.
 
T

Törölt tag 1711

Guest
Na és ez az ami nagyon durva!
A német típusok közül, a kifejezetten megbízhatatlannak tartott Panther is sokkal többet bírt. A kihajtóműveket leszámítva az erőátviteli rendszer 5000 kilométerre volt tervezve, általában ezt teljesítette is. De a motor is elment ~1500 kilométert, jó vezetőkkel a kihajtóművek is ennyit bírtak.
És ez volt a legkevésbé megbízható német típus...

39-ben, Khalkin Gol után összeült a szovjet páncélos erők vezérkara, hogy döntsenek a jövőről, mert a Bt széria brutálisan leszerepelt a japánok ellen és érezték a németek ellen még kevesebb lesz.
Sztálin kérése frontvonalat megjárt alacsonyabb rangú tisztek is jelen voltak.
Egyik fő téma a benzin vagy gázolaj volt.
A vezérkar benzin mellett érvelt, mert kisebb, könnyebb és a rendelkezésre álló motor 200 üzemórát bírt, míg a dízel jó ha 50-et.
A frontkatonák viszont dízelt akartak, mert míg az ő üzemanyagtankjaikban a nafta fogyásával benzingőz termelődött ami egy lyuk és egy szikra kíséretében berobbant, addig a Japán tankoknak ilyen problémája nem volt.
Sztálin végighallgatta a több órás veszekedést, majd mindkét verzióból berendelt egy prototípust az akkori idők legdurvább tesztelésére.
Végül 3 prototípus érkezett, mivel a dízel T-32-esből a gyártó küldött egy új 76mm-es löveggel szerelt verziót is amit T-34-nek nevezett el...
A motor problémáit sokáig nem tudták megoldani, mivel egészen '43-ig Sztálin bármiféle fejlesztést/módosítást megtiltott, mivel a gyártósoroknak teljes kapacításon kellett dübörögniük.
 

Filter

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2021. január 7.
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Hmm.....
Német gépnél, Tiger.... a 2 órás "ájtatosság" a hidegindításhoz smafu?
Értelmezhetetlen a bevethetőség.
A 85km -es terepjáró képesség ,full tankal meg bohózat szint, a korosztályos összehasonlításban is.
 
T

Törölt tag 4082

Guest
39-ben, Khalkin Gol után összeült a szovjet páncélos erők vezérkara, hogy döntsenek a jövőről, mert a Bt széria brutálisan leszerepelt a japánok ellen és érezték a németek ellen még kevesebb lesz.
Összességében a Spanyol polgárháború tapasztalatai alapján. Khalkin Golnál nagyon nem szerepelt le a BT széria. Még akkor sem, ha egyébként egy az egyben elhisszük a japán jelentéseket, amik finoman fogalmazva is az agresszív kismalac és a bicikliről leszállás minősített esete.
A frontkatonák viszont dízelt akartak, mert míg az ő üzemanyagtankjaikban a nafta fogyásával benzingőz termelődött ami egy lyuk és egy szikra kíséretében berobbant, addig a Japán tankoknak ilyen problémája nem volt.
Mindannak ellenére, hogy a 89-es típus amúgy érdekes volt, és biztos, hogy segített a döntésben, de azért nem szerepelt túl fényesen a csatában, mivel elégtelen tűzerővel rendelkezett.
Végül 3 prototípus érkezett, mivel a dízel T-32-esből a gyártó küldött egy új 76mm-es löveggel szerelt verziót is amit T-34-nek nevezett el...
A fejlesztés bőven korábban elkezdődött, és nem ad hock csinálták meg.

Amúgy a többi, meg az egész komment érdekes, csak szerintem a szovjet-japán határvillongás pont, hogy azt mutatta meg a Szunak, hogy a vH erős.
 
T

Törölt tag 1711

Guest
A fejlesztés bőven korábban elkezdődött, és nem ad hock csinálták meg.

Amúgy a többi, meg az egész komment érdekes, csak szerintem a szovjet-japán határvillongás pont, hogy azt mutatta meg a Szunak, hogy a vH erős.

Persze, hogy korábban elkezdték fejleszteni, különben nem lett volna mit elküldeni tesztelésre (meg nem lett volna miről vitázni), az egyetlen újdonság a 45mm-es löveg lecserélése volt 76mm-esre.

Németek is győztek Franciaországban, mégis levonták a következtetést és elkezdték a Panzer III váltótípusának fejlesztését.
 
T

Törölt tag 4082

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Németek is győztek Franciaországban, mégis levonták a következtetést és elkezdték a Panzer III váltótípusának fejlesztését.
Nyilván. A japán dízel nem gyullad megerősítő lehetett, hogy használható dolog. De a valódi tanulság az a Spanyol Polgárháború volt.
 
T

Törölt tag 4082

Guest
Jahh, de az A-20 és A-32 projekt közül a választást csak a japánok után hozták meg, ha az nincs jó eséllyel ők is a benzint választják.
Erre több legenda is van, abban egyezik meg mind, hogy a dízel oka a legénység kérése volt. De mondom, biztos hatott a japán dízel tank is. Ezt nem vitatom.
 
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molnibalage

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Midway kapcsán eltöprengtem, hogy ha japók a nagy hordozókkal együtt vitték volna nagy csatahajókat és cirkálókat és az első napi légitámadás alatt megindulnak a jenki hordozók felé, akkor vajon mi lett volna?

Mert a jenkinek alig volt erejük a japó hordozókat szétbombázni. A közeledi csatahajókra tűzerő nem maradt. Így viszont el kellett volna távolodniuk az ellenséges hordozóktól.

Amúgy hogyhogy nincs ma Yorktown nevezetű hajó a US Navy-ben? Vagy csak én nem találom?