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Airbus A400M Atlas

Diskurzus a(z) 'Szállító- és légi utántöltő repülőgépek' témában - GrGLy által indítva @ 2013. január 6..

  1. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

  2. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

    Nekem úgy tűnik hogy a Bundeswehr a C-check feléig csinálja a karbantartást, ami azon túl van, azt az Airbus emberei csinálják.

    A törököknél meg "heavy maintenance"-ról írnak, hogy azt is maguk csinálják, az meg a D-check szokott lenni.
     
  3. pöcshuszár

    pöcshuszár Well-Known Member

    Ahogy a NH-90-nél már írtam, hogy mit csinál a Bundeswehr/Luftwaffe, és hogy mit csinálnak Németországban az 2 külön dolog. Én feltételezem, hogy 50+ A400M-re már D-Checknek is otthon kell lennie. Vagy ha nem, akkor még nagyobb a mutra.
    Különben min változtat, hogy a törökök milyen karbantartást tudnak végezni? Ők egyszerűen úgy döntöttek, hogy saját erőből is meg tudják csinálni, csak olcsóbban.
    Ettől még 150%-ig betartják a gyári ajánlásokat, különben megvonnák tőlük a certifikációt.
     
    borisz likes this.
  4. pöcshuszár

    pöcshuszár Well-Known Member

    Szerinted mekkora a baj, ha a karbantartók 40%-a már polgári? o_O
     
    kamm likes this.
  5. kamm

    kamm Well-Known Member

    Akkor utoljara, nemi kontext, milyen botranyos allapotok uralkodnak a Bundeswehrnel evek ota, miert ertelmetlen a nemetek keszenleti szamait barmihez alapul venni - csak az elmult ket-harom evre nyulok vissza:

    June 2017
    Tortenelmi visszatekintes, miert is mostohagyerek a Bundeswehr
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40172317

    Feb 2018
    "Germany's lack of military readiness 'dramatic,' says Bundeswehr commissioner"
    https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-lack...matic-says-bundeswehr-commissioner/a-42663215

    Feb 2018
    "German armed forces in ‘dramatically bad’ shape, report finds"

    https://www.ft.com/content/23c524f6-1642-11e8-9376-4a6390addb44
    "- In his annual report, the armed forces commissioner of Germany’s parliament found that only a fraction of crucial weapons systems was operational.At the end of the year six out of six submarines were not in use. At times, not one of the 14 Airbus A-400M [transport aircraft] could fly,” Hans-Peter Bartels told a press conference in Berlin on Tuesday. Mr Bartels said 21,000 officer and non-commissioned officer positions were vacant."
    - "Critics argue that Berlin has so far failed to provide the financial backing for such an enhanced role. Germany’s defence budget accounts for 1.2 per cent of gross domestic product,"
    - "An internal Bundeswehr report leaked to the Rheinische Post newspaper on Monday warned that the military lacked not just tanks and helicopters but also bulletproof vests, tents and winter clothing that were necessary for the mission."

    Jun 2018
    "Less than a third of German military assets are operational says report"

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/less-third-german-military-assets-operational-says-report/
    -"The ‘Report on the Operational Readiness of the Bundeswehr’s Primary Weapons Systems’ was presented to Germany’s lower house of parliament on Wednesday.
    Number of weapon systems ready for action:

    • Typhoon jets: 39 of 128
    • Tornado jets: 26 of 93
    • CH-53 transport helicopters: 16 of 72
    • NH-90 transport helicopters: 13 of 58
    • Tigre attack helicopters: 12 of 62
    • A400M transport aircraft: 3 of 15
    • Leopard 2 tanks: 105 of 224
    • Frigates: 5 of 13
    • Submarines: 0 out of 6"
    - "“It’s a real disaster for the Navy, it’s the first time in history that there will not be any submarine operating for months,” warned the president of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the German Parliament, Hans-Peter Bartels, in an interview published on Sunday in the Berlin weekly Bild am Sonntag.
    The problem, he explained, has worsened over time due to the German military not replacing out of date equipment.
    The German Navy lost its last submarine in October, as the rudder of its last Type 212A was severely damaged in a collision with a rock off the Norwegian coast while the rest of the fleet was out of service. It is also understood that none of the new frigates, the Type 125s, are able to enter into operational service due to defects and a similar situation is faced by auxiliary ships, Berlin and Bonn, which were sent to dry dock for a year and a half of repairs."
    - "In 2015, it was revealed that only 29 of Germany’s 66 Tornado jets are airworthy. Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen then stressed that only six of the operational Tornado jets would be needed for the proposed German mission in Syria."
    - "It gets worse. According to local media, the fuel used by the German Tornado fleet appears to have been mixed with ‘too much bio-diesel’. According to news site Frankfurter Allgemeine, this was noticed during a routine check last Monday"
    - this breakdown is particularly annoying for the Luftwaffe, as training of new Tornado pilots is already three months behind."
    - "Bundeswehr’s ninth tank brigade in Münster only has nine operational Leopard 2 tanks — even though it promised to have 44 ready for the VJTF — and only three of the promised 14 Marder armored infantry vehicles.The paper also revealed the reason for this shortfall: a lack of spare parts and the high cost and time needed to maintain the vehicles."
    -"It added that it was also lacking night-vision equipment, automatic grenade launchers, winter clothing and body armor."
    - "The German air force is also struggling to cover its NATO duties, the document revealed. The Luftwaffe’s main forces — the Eurofighter and Tornado fighter jets and its CH-53 transport helicopters — are only available for use an average of four months a year — the rest of the time the aircraft are grounded for repairs and rearmament."


    Aug 2018
    "In short: Germany’s armed forces are barely fit for purpose. Why?"

    https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/08/09/why-germanys-army-is-in-a-bad-state

    Jan 2019
    "The German Bundeswehr is still underequipped, understaffed and overly bureaucratic, a new parliamentary report has revealed."
    https://www.dw.com/en/german-military-lacks-equipment-and-recruits-says-damning-report/a-47281996

    Jan 2019
    "An annual parliamentary report on the state of the Bundeswehr indicates that the ongoing struggles of Germany’s armed forces show little sign of reversal in the near future."

    https://dsm.forecastinternational.c...31/germanys-military-readiness-woes-continue/

    Feb 2019
    "Nobody wants to join the German army"

    https://www.ozy.com/around-the-world/nobody-wants-to-join-the-german-army/92541/
    - "These and other problems were exacerbated, Bartels says, by excessive bureaucracy and painfully slow procedures: “Our Bundeswehr, as I see it now, suffers from both understaffing and over-organization. Too much work is done either twice or is done in conflict with other work. Too many labor hours are dedicated to poor structures.” He adds, “Many soldiers tell me: We are administering ourselves to death.”"

    Feb 2019
    "Germany’s soldiers of misfortune"

    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-biggest-enemy-threadbare-army-bundeswehr/
    - "Fighter jets and helicopters that don’t fly. Ships and submarines that can’t sail. Severe shortages of everything from ammunition to underwear. If it sounds like an exaggeration to compare Germany’s Bundeswehr to “The Gang that Couldn’t Shoot Straight,” look no further than the army’s standard-issue assault rifle, Heckler & Koch’s G36. The government decided to scrap the weapon after discovering that the gun misses its target if it’s too hot."
    - "today’s German army increasingly looks more like a volunteer fire department — last month, mountain troops were dispatched to shovel snow from roofs in Bavaria"
    - "On a recent trip to Lithuania, where about 450 German soldiers are stationed as part of a NATO mission to deter Russian aggression, U.S. officials were dismayed to discover Bundeswehr personnel communicating on unsecure mobile phones due to a shortage of secure radio equipment."
    - "Fewer than 20 percent of Germany’s 68 Tiger combat helicopters and fewer than 30 percent of its 136 Eurofighter jets could fly in late 2018. Pilots, frustrated that they can’t fly, are quitting."


     
  6. kamm

    kamm Well-Known Member

    Aug 2019
    "It’s High Time for Germany to Fund, and Fix, Its Military"

    https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/08/its-high-time-germany-fund-and-fix-its-military/159149/
    - "According to the German Parliament’s own inspector of Germany’s armed forces, the Bundeswehr is plagued by over-management, excessive bureaucracy, poor staffing, training delays, a lack of deployable weapons, and an undersupply of basic equipment like radios and night-vision goggles. As a high-ranking German military officer told Politico Europe earlier this year, “No matter where you look, there’s dysfunction.”
    - "by late 2018, only 30 percent of Germany’s 136 Eurofighter jets could stay in the air. "
    - "Half of its fleet of transport aircraft were not operational last year."
    - "Not one submarine was ready for service."

    - "a parliamentary report found that just 20,000 recruits joined the service in 2018, the lowest in history. "
    - "Just this month, the Germans had to ground all 53 of its Tiger helicopters due to technical malfunctions in the jet’s hardware."
    - "The German military is a mess, and that becomes the United States’ problem when politicians in Berlin are too politically timid to meet the NATO commitments they have made."

    Aug 2019
    "Germany’s military has become a complete joke - It can’t fulfil its role as a Nato member, let alone form the heart of a European defence force"
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/germany-s-military-has-become-a-complete-joke

    Sep 2019
    "German Army: From ‘Laughingstock’ to Glory"

    https://www.thetrumpet.com/21286-german-army-from-laughingstock-to-glory
    - "Germany’s military is suffering from drastic cost increases and delivery delays in its efforts to obtain new equipment. Additionally, the media has fueled the frustration by reporting that the country lacks military readiness. The impression has risen that “in the Bundeswehr, nothing flies, nothing drives, and nothing goes to sea,” Kramp-Karrenbauer said."
    - "In an April 2017 article for Bild, Vad compared the state of Israel’s military spending to that of Germany’s. He concluded that the Bundeswehr’s problem isn’t a lack of funds, but rather too much bureaucracy."


    Jan 2020
    "Germany Has Fewer Than 10 Tiger And 12 NH90 Helicopters Ready For Combat - Germany blames Airbus for the helicopters' low availability, but it is the latest example of the country's general continuing readiness woes."

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...iger-and-12-nh90-helicopters-ready-for-combat
    - "Bild was first to report on the low readiness of the two German military helicopter types on Jan. 1, 2020. A leaked Bundeswehr report that the outlet obtained said that eight out of 53 Tigers and 12 of 99 NH90s were "ready-to-use.""
    - "Germany's Tigers go through a phase maintenance process after ever 400 flight hours, while personnel conduct similar checks on the NH90s after 600 hours. Bild says that Airbus contractors are responsible for half of these checks on the Tiger fleet and around 90 percent of them with regards to the NH90s."
    - "In October 2019, the German military grounded all of the NH90s it had received prior to 2018 over concerns about their tail rotors. "
    - "In 2017, a Tiger assigned to the German contingent in the northwestern African country of Mali also crashed, killing both the pilot and the co-pilot, when its main rotor fell apart in midair. An investigation that wrapped up the following year found that Airbus maintenance contractors had improperly serviced the helicopter before the accident."
    - "in 2018 showed that just 12 Tigers and 13 NH90s were mission capable, making it clear that the plight of both fleets certainly isn't new."
    - "In November 2019, when the Tigers and NH90s hit their recent readiness low point, the German government did formally announce a pledge to meet NATO's goal of all of its members spending two percent of their gross domestic products on defense."
     
    Nemerson likes this.
  7. arcas

    arcas Well-Known Member

    Számomra nehezen hihető, hogy pusztán az Airbus-on múlna a rossz német hadrafoghatósági mutató, ha egyébként máshol ezzel nincs gond (no nem a technikával,hanem a support-al).
     
    Terminator likes this.
  8. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

    A nemet H145M-eknel ugy erik el a 90%-os bevethetoseget, hogy a 800 ora feletti ellenorzeseket (tulajdonkeppen minden nagyobb dolgot) az Airbus emberei csinalnak.
     
    arcas likes this.
  9. formosa1

    formosa1 Active Member

    Még szerencse, hogy a vevők jóval tapasztaltabbak az egyszerű hozzászólóknál, így nem verik fölös költségekbe magukat. - Ellenkező esetben ugyanis üres zsebbel nézhetnék a betonon veszteglő, több kannibalizáción átesett rozsdahalmokat... :(
     
  10. emel

    emel Well-Known Member

    Ebben nincs semmi extra, a nagyjavításokat a világon mindenütt (legalábbis amiről tudok) sehol nem az üzemeltetők hanem külsős cégek végzik, lásd a mi MiG-21 és Mi-2/8/24 flottánkat is a PG-ben nagyjavítottuk, vagy a Gripenjeink 800 órás nagyjavítását is nem a MH, hanem Svédországban végzik. A baj akkor van, ha erre nincs költségvetési keret vagy az túl kevés ...
     
    vilmoci likes this.
  11. Wilson

    Wilson Well-Known Member

    Mint a törökök a malájok és a franciák,érdekes módon ahol nem alultervezett a büdzsé és van normális karbantartás ott nincs gond a bevethetőséggel.
     
    kamm likes this.
  12. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

    De a H145M-nel ez az evenkenti nagyobb ellenorzest jelenti.
     
  13. formosa1

    formosa1 Active Member

    Tudod azért a "megmosolyogtató állításnak" jól látható következménye van: Az Atlas iránt érdeklődők mosolyognak, és mennek Herkit venni...

    "Elszaladt a fejlesztési költségek" valamint elszaladt vevők esetén "bizony nem példa nélküli", hogy az egykor szép reményekkel induló típus kereslet híján megbukik...!
     
  14. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

    A civil EC145 gépek 400 órás ellenőrzését tudták megnyújtani 800 órára. Amit évente vagy 800 óránként el kell végezni. Amelyik hamarabb eljön.
     
  15. kamm

    kamm Well-Known Member

    Please, fejezd mar be ezt az iskolasgyerek-tempot, komolyan.
    Hasznos infot nem sikerul osszeszedned, a szubjektiv-szelektiv kovetkezteteseidet mar szazszor elolvastuk, logikat meg mindig nem tettel mogejuk, ujat meg nem sikerult mondanod az istennek sem, a masok altal leirt tenyek nem jutnak el az agyadig... ha nem tudsz ertelmeset irni, akkor inkabb irj a beszelgetobe avagy valami eletkorodnak megfelelo forumra, ne legyen mar ez a sok zoldseg minden oldalon.
     
  16. emel

    emel Well-Known Member

    Ezzel csak annyi a baj, hogy nem tudjuk mibe kerül a gépek üzemeltetése. Ha még a francúz gép is "statikus" lett Pápán egy NATO-gyakorlaton, akkor nem biztos hogy túl olcsó az üzemképesség fenntartása.
     
  17. Wilson

    Wilson Well-Known Member

    Ez igaz de amíg nincs hiteles adat a gépek üzemeltetési költségéről addig megmosolyogtató egyes fórum tagok légbőlkapott állítása,hogy az A400-s drágán üzemeltethető.
     
  18. emel

    emel Well-Known Member

    Nana, azért némi arányokat ismerhetünk, egy 4-hajtóműves nagyobb gép üzemeltetése biztos többe kerül egy 2-hajtóműves kisebb típusnál. Nincs 2,5l-es turbó-dízel BMW kocsim, de ettől függetlenül merem vállalni azt a véleményemet hogy drágább az üzemeltetése mint pl. egy 1,4-es Skoda Fabia-é. Ilyen szinten kevés rizikóval repülőgépeknél is bevállalok némi saccolást, tekintve hogy ez a szakmám.
     
    vilmoci, fishbed, arcas and 3 others like this.
  19. Wilson

    Wilson Well-Known Member

    Dícsérendő a kitartásod,hogy folyamatosan megosztod velünk az A400 elleni ellenszenved,de szerintem majd térjünk vissza pár év múlva arra ki mennyi A400-t vesz.Én csak azt nem értem,hogy mi értelme annak,hogy állandóan azt szajkózod,hogy az A400-s rossz miközben fogalmad sincs a gép áráról az üzemeltetési költségéről a gép valós teljesítményéről az egyes országok A400 állományának üzemeltetési hátteréről.
     
    kamm likes this.
  20. Wilson

    Wilson Well-Known Member

    Ok,ez nyilvánvaló de szerintem dőreség a te példádat alapul véve egy A400 üzemeltetési költségét összehasonlítani egy Spartannal,mert annál nyilvánvalóan drágább egy A400 fenntartása.
     
    kamm likes this.

Ezen oldal megosztása